Re: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?

Have any of you read "The star that astonished the world" by Ernest Martin?
It's been quite a few years since I read it, but I thought he did a pretty
good job of sleuthing the astronomical and historical records to come up
with good candidates for the actual birthdate of Jesus.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 3:44 PM, George Cooper
<georgecooper@sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> Hi John and all,
>
>
>
> I like the idea that God does not intervene with celestial bodies. It is
> obvious to me that He does get involved within the hearts of man, including
> how some may place value on certain celestial events. Astrological signs
> we consider minor today, for those who think there is some causal relation,
> could have been intellectually or spiritually magnified to serve the purpose
> intended – having the wise men to mount-up and ride.
>
>
>
> The arguments favoring an astrological allure for the wise men to travel to
> Judah seem logical. If they knew something big was happening they would go
> to those who should be in the know – the astrologers of Judah in Jerusalem.
> Apparently, this light was incapable of taking them directly to little
> Bethlehem.
>
>
>
> I can’t imagine any way a natural light form above our atmosphere could
> illuminate a specific town or residence. Something miraculous would be
> required, which seems to fit with the account of that night they arrived.
> Another reason to sing. J
>
>
>
> There are some amazingly accurate astronomical software packages that are
> reasonably priced. I use Starry Night Pro and found the following list of
> chronological events.
>
>
>
> [Occulation …… When one celestial body passes in front of another
>
> Conjunction…. When the celestial bodies are very near one another.]
>
>
>
> [Assuming the claim that Herod died in 4BC, it is not hard to eliminate the
> subsequent events.]
>
>
>
> *6 BC:*
>
> Jan. 1: Jupiter & Saturn close in Pisces
>
> Jan. 23: Saturn equidistant between Jupiter and Moon in Pisces (pointing
> to Aries?)
>
> Feb. 20: Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and new Moon all within about 3 deg.
> radius
>
> In Pisces at 7pm on western horizon
>
> Mar. 4: Jupiter and Mars conjunction at sunset
>
> Horizontal alignment with Saturn directly below
>
> Mar. 19: Lunar occulation of Saturn (not visible, too close to Sun and
> below horizon)
>
> Mar. 24: Venus and Saturn conjunction at dawn in Pisces
>
> Apr. 16: Lunar occulation of Saturn, 12:50 pm in Pisces. (not visible,
> daytime)
>
> Apr. 17: Lunar occulation of Jupiter, about 12:45 pm (daytime)
>
> Apr. 18: Annular Solar eclipse (not visible from Middle East)
>
> Apr. 24: Saturn and Venus only 42 arcmin separation in Pisces
>
> Seen only briefly around 4:30 am on horizon (4 deg alt.)
>
> May 8: Conjunction of Jupiter and Venus (34 arcmin in Aries).
>
> Visible only on horizon from 4 to 5:30 am
>
> May 13: Lunar occulation of Saturn in Pisces (not visible from Middle East)
>
> 11 pm but 46 deg below horizon. Venus and Jupiter reasonably
> close by.
>
> May 15: Lunar conjunction of Jupiter in Aries (< 6 arcminutes)
>
> Visible about one and one-half hours before conjunction.
>
> Venus-Jupiter-Moon-Saturn aligned (Aries region)
>
> May 16: Venus and very thin crescent Moon proximity (3 deg) in Taurus
>
> Seen only briefly about 4:30 am
>
> Jul. 2: Venus & Mars conjunction at dusk
>
> Jul. 10: Mercury & Venus conjunction at dusk (Mars nearby)
>
> Jul. 22: Saturn begins retrograde between Cetus and Aries
>
> Aug. 22: Jupiter begins retrograde back into Aries (December)
>
> Sep. 2: Mars visible within 50 arcminutes of Regulus at 4:30am in Leo
>
> Sep 14: Lunar occulation of Venus (far below horizon, not visible)
>
> Nov. 7: Mars about 2 deg. from Moon when it rises in East (2 am in Virgo)
>
>
>
> *5 BC: * [Most activity too close to Sun]**
>
> Mar. 11: Lunar conjunction of Venus with Jupiter and Pleiades very close
>
> Region between Taurus and Aries asterisms.
>
> Actual conjunction only 1 arcmin separation but well below
> horizon
>
> Mar. 23: Total Lunar eclipse, 9:30 pm, 38 deg. alt., in Virgo
>
> Sep. 15: Total Lunar eclipse, 11:20 pm, 50 deg. alt., in Pisces
>
>
>
> *4BC*: [Most activity too close to Sun]
>
> Jan. 30: Lunar conjunction with Mars in Pisces
>
> 30 arcminutes at 3pm, 1 deg. at 6 pm.
>
> Mar. 6 & 7: Conjuction of Saturn and Mars (~ 2 deg)
>
> Seen near western horizon around 7:30 pm, in Aries
>
> Mar 13: Lunar eclipse (1/3 partial umbral passage), 3:30 am in Virgo (33
> deg alt.)
>
> May 9: Conjunction of Saturn and Mercury, dawn, in Taurus
>
> May 17: Conjunction of Mars and Venus at dusk near horizon (Jupiter
> nearby)
>
> May 23: Conjunction of Venus and Jupiter at dusk near horizon in Gemini
>
> Sep 5: Lunar eclipse (2/3 umbral passage), but at 2:15 pm and well below
> horizon
>
>
>
> *3BC*
>
> Apr. 2: Saturn, Venus, Mars grouping in Taurus
>
> Jun 13: Saturn and Venus conjunction, seen rising at 3 am in Taurus
>
> Aug 12: Jupiter and Venus close conjuction, seen rising at 5 am in Leo
>
> Sep 5: Lunar occulation of Jupiter near Regulus in Leo
>
> Not visible until 1 deg. separation when rising at 3 am.
>
> Sep 14: Jupiter rises with Regulus in Leo
>
> About 15 arcmin. Separation at 4 am, 24 deg. alt.
>
> Oct. 3: Jupiter, Regulus, and crescent Moon within 3 deg. radius of Regulus
> (Leo)
>
> Oct. 31: Close conjunction of Moon and Jupiter in Leo at 4 am,
>
> About 30 min. separation at 60 deg. alt.
>
>
>
> *2 BC*
>
> Jan 20: Lunar eclipse below horizon in daytime (2 pm)
>
> Mar 25: Saturn and Mars conjunction setting in Taurus (8:30 pm), Venus
> nearby
>
> Apr 3: Saturn, Venus, Mars grouping (3 deg. radius from Venus) at setting
>
> Apr 12: Moon, Regulus, Jupiter alignment
>
> May 7: Crescent Moon close conjunction (2 arcminutes) of Venus in Gemini
>
> But 20 deg. below horizon
>
> May 10: Moon, Regulus, Jupiter alignment seen at midnight at setting
>
> Jun 17: Venus occulation of Jupiter (8 arcsec separation), 9:18pm in Leo
>
> Jul 17: Lunar eclipse below horizon in daytime (8:30 am)
>
> Oct 14: Jupiter and Venus conjunction rising at 3 am in Virgo
>
> Nearby is Mars close to Spica
>
> Oct 24: Jupiter, Venus, Spica, crescent Moon grouping in Virgo (5 am)
>
> Dec 8: Venus and Mars conjunction rising at 4 am in Libra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *John Walley
> *Sent:* Monday, November 23, 2009 4:45 AM
> *To:* David Clounch
> *Cc:* Merv Bitikofer; asa
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "But the deistic conditions are not necessary unless one believes a priori
> that God cannot stick His finger into the universe after initially setting
> it up. " ... "The entire objection to non-deistic Christianity is based
> on the idea that His reach into the universe is a zero length causal chain,
> i.e., he cannot reach into the universe at all. Except at the beginning. "
>
> I agree God can and does intervene in human affairs all the time. That is
> the concept of prayer which I firmly believe in. And I believe He
> manipulates events all the time.
>
>
>
> However as far as signs in the heavens that were foretold thousands of
> years beforehand like conjunctions of planets and stars, that is likely
> something not manipulated on an ad-hoc basis, since it follows regular
> motions. In that case it would likely simply be advance knowledge of the
> event and manipulating when Christ was incarnated, like I said earlier.
>
>
>
> JOhn
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> *To:* John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Merv Bitikofer <mrb22667@kansas.net>; asa <asa@calvin.edu>
> *Sent:* Mon, November 23, 2009 1:13:00 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?
>
> Merv,
> I wanted to comment about concordism (I am not rejecting your view), but I
> will now have to wait to comment.
>
> John says:
>
> If God wound up the universe in the Big Bang and let it unwind according
> the laws of physics, it would be predestined that these events would occur
> at some point.
>
>
> The idea that 13 billion years ago God set the laws of physics in motion
> with some initial conditions, and this determines a physical event in our
> current history makes no sense to me. Its the opposite of what Polkinghorne
> was trying to say about non-determinism.
>
>
>
>
> So if God is omniscient and wants to use this event as a sign, it is as
> simple as timing the advent of Christ accordingly. Easy peasy!
>
> This goes for all the other prophecies in the OT as well. Do you reject
> those for the same reason?
>
>
>
> I would reject them under those deistic type conditions. But the deistic
> conditions are not necessary unless one believes a priori that God cannot
> stick His finger into the universe after initially setting it up.
>
> The very idea that Jesus was simultaneously divine and physical
> demonstrates that God sticks His finger in the universe. God walked on the
> water and the sand. He left footprints. Since He can do that he can also
> manipulate historical events. He doesn't have to use a long causal chain
> of natural events to effect a tweak in a historical event.
> The entire objection to non-deistic Christianity is based on the idea
> that His reach into the universe is a zero length causal chain, i.e., he
> cannot reach into the universe at all. Except at the beginning. You seem to
> be postulating that He affects events via a 13 billion year long causal
> chain that is deterministic. But everything we know about the universe says
> it is not deterministic. I don't see deism being consistent with physics.
>
> This is an important disagreement. If people believe deism is consistent
> with physics, well, they have to demonstrate that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Merv Bitikofer <mrb22667@kansas.net>
> To: David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>; asa <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 8:33:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?
>
> Okay -- you uncover my weakness! Maybe this (the whole star presentation)
> is one of my few remaining concessions to concordism. I guess as long as I
> don't try to make my faith lean to heavily (or at all) on our modern
> speculation about process, I'll probably be okay. But just for the record,
> theologically speaking, I don't find the notion of a sovereign God
> orchestrating the events of our universe to be far out. Indeed I have faith
> that such is the case even if I can't make complete sense of that
> scientifically or philosophically. Where science (if it is legitimately
> done) may happen to reveal such things, I find it fascinating. Where
> science (if its legitimately done) would correct an errant understanding of
> history, it is the truth-seeker's job (mine and yours) to stand corrected.
> --Merv
>
>
> David Clounch wrote:
> > Merv,
> >
> > It has never occurred to me to attribute it to cosmic phenomena period.
> In spite of the astronomers looking for a cosmic explanation. I just
> ignored that. After all, I also don't believe St Nick was Santa Claus, and I
> don't believe in weeping statues or the shroud of Turin. (However, I do
> believe in St Patrick. [see footnote 1])
> >
> > But on the other hand, one thing I've never noticed is anybody looking
> for a non cosmic explanation.
> > I'm not naysaying Larson. Never heard of him. But I've been reading
> these cosmic theories for decades. I think they were invented in modern
> times by folks looking for a way that God didn't really get involved in
> the advent. There are philosophical camps that prefer that sort of
> explanation, and theologians that follow those camps of thought. But I am
> skeptical. The idea that God pre-programmed the universe to give just the
> right solar system is ... far out? For example, maybe the universe was
> also pre-programmed to produce the pyramids without any humans getting
> involved? Maybe the egyptians discovered them? *cough* *cough*
> > I once went to a church where the pastor taught that the constellations
> were placed where they are in order to tell the advent story as a prophecy.
> And that all ancients knew the story. But the pagans changed the story. The
> thing about this is, for a TE type theory, one must believe that God
> pre-programmed all the galaxy to present the "movie in the sky" so as to
> support the Christ story. That to me is on the same level as the cosmic
> Star of Bethlehem hypothesis. Its too complicated. Its easier to believe
> in UFO's. (where angels have power, or technology, or both). And the
> latter doesn't conflict with scripture in any way I know of.
> >
> > OK, I'll look at Larson since you guys are so impressed with him.
> Where was he when I was a kid having heaps of BS poured on me? ;)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dave C
> >
> > [footnote 1]
> > WARNING WARNING: PRO-IRISH PROPAGANDA AHEAD
> > ====================================
> > I do however, believe in St Patrick (who BTW wasn't a (S)aint with a
> capital s.
> > He was kidnapped in 401AD at the age of 16 and taken to Ireland as a
> slave but escaped 6 years later. I've been reading "How The Irish Saved
> Civilization" by Thomas Cahill. Patrick established the first Christian
> civilization in the world that wasn't a co-blend with roman ways. So,
> there's a myth that wasn't a myth. My personal interest is it took these
> Christians over 100 years to convert Clan McCarthy who lived in Munster
> (SW Ireland). I've been tracing my ancestors. So far the earliest goes
> back to 123 AD. Only the Jews have an older family lineage than the
> McCarthy clan. Anyway, along the way I discovered that Irish missionaries
> to Europe established monastaries all over Europe. This after Rome was long
> gone. For example, Salzburg and Vienna were both founded as monasteries
> and later grew into towns then cities. The important part is these monks
> took books, including the classics, with them. Thus they
> preserved the pre-dark age knowledge. I had never heard any of this
> before looking at Irish history. You see, American education focuses on the
> British founders, and covers the Irish only at the point of the great
> immigrations. Irish culture is COMPLETELY IGNORED in American education.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Merv Bitikofer <mrb22667@kansas.net<mailto:
> mrb22667@kansas.net>> wrote:
> >
> > Mr. Larson (the here discussed Star of Bethlehem researcher) is
> > way ahead of you David. You should actually read his stuff before
> > you nay say it. I guess John posted some excerpts which might
> > summarize some of his points pretty well. I went in as a skeptic,
> > but came out impressed with his methods of inquiry. He does
> > approach it unapologetically as a Christian and with the stated
> > assumption that he is going to take the Biblical record of the
> > event seriously. Far be it from me to hold that against him. He
> > does come away convinced that it was an astronomical event ----
> > but nothing so silly as we try to imagine that would hover in the
> > air and stop over a stable, etc. You must have a lot of trouble
> > understanding apocalyptic literature in Revelation with its stars
> > falling out of the sky! :-> For that matter, I do too. But I
> > guess, for all my confusion, it hasn't occurred to me to actually
> > try to take it as literal commentary on cosmic movements according
> > to 20th century definition!
> >
> > --Merv
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
William E (Bill) Hamilton Jr., Ph.D.
Member American Scientific Affiliation
Austin, TX
248 821 8156
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