Re: [asa] RE: Analogies for pseudogenes... a tipping point for the ASA? ([asa] Re: On the Barr-West exchange and ID/TE)

Bernie,
  Over the last few months you have made this comment many times and I have
chosen not to respond. At long last, permit me to share my perspective on
the ASA making such official proclamations. Our organization is based on two
basic principles. One is the statement of faith centered on the Nicene and
Apostles' creeds. The other is integrity in science. The latter means that
we are dealing with the relationship of Christian faith to mainstream
science, not to alternatives. It means there is integrity in the process
whereby scientific understanding is attained. It doesn't mean that we
declare all scientific conclusions to be correct, but it does mean that it
is the consensus with which we are dealing. Those who feel that the
relationship between Christian faith and science depends on a change in
scientific perspective must go through the generally accepted scientific
methodology of changing scientific perspectives before it can gain the
status of integrity in science. I do not believe the ASA should or needs to
take any more detailed position on any scientific matter. The age of the
earth is easily determined through well-accepted scientific methodology. We
need make no other statement. Those who wish to argue with the age of the
earth are free to do so in the normal channels. The evolutionary development
of life on earth is also well documented and there is no need for us to make
a scientific proclamation. The connection with theological perspectives is
our concern and that is where we intend to provide a forum for open dialog
and discussion.

Randy

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:15 AM
Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
Subject: [asa] RE: Analogies for pseudogenes... a tipping point for the ASA?
([asa] Re: On the Barr-West exchange and ID/TE)

> I'm not suggesting the ASA goes so far as to be an EC (evolutionary
> creationist) organization. All I'm suggesting is that they officially
> rebuke the YEC/OEC hypothesis that man is made 'de novo' and proclaim that
> the DNA evidence is sufficient to demonstrate that man descended
> biologically from other animals. Since it is supposed to be a scientific
> affiliation, I think to be tolerant of 'de novo' creation of man, as a
> hypothesis, degrades the scientific reputation of the group, which in turn
> diminishes its influence as a scientific organization.
>
> While they are add it, a position statement against the global flood would
> also be appropriate. Until then, the ASA will, and should be,
> marginalized as a 'scientific' association by outsiders.
>
> Taking my advice would improve the scientific quality of the group and
> improve its reputation. So while it may sound critical, it should also be
> viewed as helpful in a positive way.
>
> ...Bernie
> (Friend of the ASA)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Walley [mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:15 AM
> To: Dave Wallace; Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: Analogies for pseudogenes... a tipping point for the ASA?
> ([asa] Re: On the Barr-West exchange and ID/TE)
>
> " I probably would not have subscribed to Perspectives and joined had ASA
> been an exclusively EC/TE organization."
>
> That's interesting because the draw of ASA to me was precisely that it was
> an EC/TE organization. There are plenty of other sites and lists for
> YEC/PC and ID but ASA was the only thing I could find that represented the
> TE position.
>
> JOhn
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dave Wallace <wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com>
> To: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> Cc: "asa@calvin.edu" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 8:07:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Analogies for pseudogenes... a tipping point for the ASA?
> ([asa] Re: On the Barr-West exchange and ID/TE)
>
> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>
>> So just in the same way we know that people are copying, because of these
>> designer tricks, we can know for sure that macroevolution happened,
>> because of the copies of errors in the genome. Man came from an apelike
>> creature, and was not created 'de novo.' I wonder what prevents the ASA
>> from taking a strong stance on this; i.e., why tolerate YEC or OEC
>> viewpoints on this, as if it is a reasonable position to have a 'de novo'
>> idea of creations for humans? Maybe it is because this genomic evidence
>> is still rather new, just a few years old because of all the recent
>> sequencing. But I think the ASA will have to step up to the plate if it
>> wants to be respectable and relevant. dealing with the consequences of
>> this data in a reasonable way. Maybe the pseudogene evidence is the
>> tipping-point to break-off from OEC/YEC? Maybe the ASA, by officially
>> being agnostic and not repudiating YEC/OEC on this point officially, is
>> contributing to confusion about
> evolution in the Christian world? After all, if there was solid evidence
> for evolution, wouldn't the world's best Christian scientists admit that
> forthrightly? Maybe the ASA is having the same consequences of 'big tent'
> mentality as ID is having (although, not at all to the enormous same
> extent)?
>>
>> I would like to tell my Christian friends "The consensus of Christian
>> science and theology experts (the ASA) is that macroevolution happened."
>> But I can't do that.
>>
>>
> Bernie:
>
> As best I understand history. the ASA was founded by people who drew
> heavily from the work of Bernard Ramm who was OEC, at least as I read him.
>> His equally celebrated and criticized 1954 book /The Christian View of
>> Science and Scripture/ was the theme of a 1979 issue of the /Journal of
>> the American Scientific Affiliation
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Scientific_Affiliation>/
> wiki
>
> From article on ASA history:
>> The original founders were very concerned about the increasing atheistic
>> emphasis and orientation of science, especially the uncritical acceptance
>> of Darwin and evolution as a whole (Nelkin, 1977). The first president
>> was F. Alton Everest and the first secretary was Wheaton College
>> biologist Dr. Russell Mixter (Hartzler, 1991). Part of the ASA preamble
>> states that it is an "evangelical organization of men and women who share
>> a common fidelity to the word of God and to Christian faith." The ASA
>> does not align itself exclusively with any specific religious
>> orientation, and claims that they are willing to go "anywhere research
>> leads them." Nelkin (1977, p. 65) concluded that ASA members "believe
>> that evolutionary concepts are misleading and have serious [i.e.,
>> undesirable] moral and social as well as theological implications." She
>> adds (1977, 65) that the ASA has "avoided taking a position that
>> advocates teaching creation theory in public schools,"
> although many ASA members criticize the current evolutionary emphasis in
> most biology and related textbooks, arguing that "evolution is taught in a
> far too dogmatic way, that the theory is extended beyond what is
> scientifically appropriate and that it unnecessarily excludes
> consideration of alternative theories" (Nelkin, 1977, p. 66). Although
> many ASA members are theistic evolutionists, large numbers are
> conservative progressive creationists. The literal six-day, twenty-four
> hour creation for both the heavens and earth, and all that is in them, and
> the universal deluge (otherwise known as flood geology) views are also
> well represented. Many members, though, stress only that biology "must
> avoid implying that evolution is the only acceptable theory" of origins
> (Nelkin, 1977, p. 66). Their middle of the road approach, though, has not
> always been well received by the science community:
> 1993 Jerry Bergman Originally published in /Contra Mundum/ No. 7 Spring
> 1993
> http://www.asa3.org/ASA/Resources/CMBergman.html
>
> Admittidly the above is somewhat out of date now and I would expect that
> the proportion of members that hold an EC/TE position has increased as
> have those that accept ID. I wish we had a recent survey.
>
> My point is that ASA is not a EC/TE organization although as Randy's
> recent article pointed out we do look for and hold to scientific
> integrity. Henry Morris etc left the ASA to found ICR as he felt unwelcome
> and unaccepted. I probably would not have subscribed to Perspectives and
> joined had ASA been an exclusively EC/TE organization.
>
> I agree that the evidence for common descent has become much more
> compelling recently and have long accepted an old earth even when I
> attended a YEC church.
>
> Dave W
>
>
>
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Received on Sun Nov 22 21:46:29 2009