RE: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?

Merv said:
"He does come away convinced that it was an astronomical
event ---- but nothing so silly as we try to imagine that would hover
in the air and stop over a stable, etc. "

Silly? Isn't that what the text pretty much implies?

Matt 2 seems to imply that the star stopped exactly over the house, in order to identify the actual house:

Matt 2
9After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

If the light didn't stop over a house, how would they know where the child king was? It could have been any newborn in town (and anyone would have claimed it to get the gifts). Don't you think there was likely more than one newborn in the city? From stat's, it looks like my State of Oregon has a birth rate of about 1.3% of the population per year. If they had that rate, and 30,000 people (just a wild guess), that would be 390 births per year, or more than 1 per day. If the baby was 2 weeks old, that would be more than 14 to choose from... or do you think they arrived on the same day of the birth?

Does Larson's hypothesis go as far as to explain how the house was identified? Or is that major part still a mystery? It wouldn't be much of an explanation if it only explains part of the problem- how a big light could appear in the sky. The rest of the story is a blur for someone interested in reality and an explanation?

So either the light appeared over the right house, or some major details are missing as to how the magi were able to sort through all the babies to know which one was the new king. The story implies that the light identified the child, and nothing at all is said about difficulties resulting from trying to find the right kid in the town.

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Merv Bitikofer
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 3:13 PM
To: David Clounch; asa
Subject: Re: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?

Mr. Larson (the here discussed Star of Bethlehem researcher) is way
ahead of you David. You should actually read his stuff before you nay
say it. I guess John posted some excerpts which might summarize some of
his points pretty well. I went in as a skeptic, but came out impressed
with his methods of inquiry. He does approach it unapologetically as a
Christian and with the stated assumption that he is going to take the
Biblical record of the event seriously. Far be it from me to hold that
against him. He does come away convinced that it was an astronomical
event ---- but nothing so silly as we try to imagine that would hover
in the air and stop over a stable, etc. You must have a lot of trouble
understanding apocalyptic literature in Revelation with its stars
falling out of the sky! :-> For that matter, I do too. But I
guess, for all my confusion, it hasn't occurred to me to actually try to
take it as literal commentary on cosmic movements according to 20th
century definition!

--Merv

David Clounch wrote:
> I agree. What ever made anybody think a bright light in the sky must
> always come from a solar mass? Those in 1 BC who were looking for
> the Christ child would have said a satellite is a star. They would
> have said the lights on a 747 are stars. If a helicopter with a
> floodlamp flew over them they would have said it was a star.
>
> Stars which are actual solar masses rise in the east, and set in the
> west, every night following the same path across the next few hours.
> They go east to west. So, if you have a clock, and sample their
> position exactly 1/2 hour before dawn, you can say they are west of
> you. But at sunset they rise east of you. In the middle of the night
> they are directly above you (adjusted for latitude of course).
>
>
> Contrast this to a satellite in geosynchronous orbit. If it is above
> North America it would look to be in the west to someone in Palestine.
> And it would stay in that position all night.
>
> I don't think it was a geosynchronous satellite, but I don't think it
> was a solar mass either.
>
> If you want someone to go north to south, and you want the beacon to
> be an astronomical object, you'd have to put it in the southern
> hemisphere. So, after visiting the capitol, which direction did they
> head toward? The Mediteranean? Why did they then not end up in Spain?
>
> When they did find Bethlehem there's nothing to say the star didn't
> descent vertically and hover 300 feet over the town as they approached
> the town from the north. In fact, to be able to have them
> distinguish a little town from an area the size of Los Angeles that is
> exactly what would have been required. This was most likely not an
> astronomical event.
>
> So figuring out what the actual observation was, and then drawing an
> inference as to proximate cause, requires a complete reset in
> thinking. One has to think forensics, not theology. But every
> holiday season we are treated with the same dish of crapola. There is
> no natural explanation for the event.
>
> I remain "a cynic" ;)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 3:44 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com
> <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> I'm curuious. What path would a star take? And how do you describe it?
>
> As far as who made it up, I guess you would have to blame the
> gospel writers. I am not sure they had the distinction back them
> between stars and planets, except for calling the stars that moved
> "wandering stars". Again the astronomical understanding of the day
> has to taken into acount.
>
> If you need a visual to help you remember this distinction
> forverer, nothing would be more effective than this priceless clip
> of the multi-talented Lee Marvin finding his senstive side in the
> old 60's movie Paint Your Wagon. :)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbiRDNaDeo
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com
> <mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com>>
> *To:* John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com
> <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>>
> *Cc:* Allan Harvey <steamdoc@q.com <mailto:steamdoc@q.com>>;
> asa@calvin.edu <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
> *Sent:* Sat, November 21, 2009 1:48:10 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?
>
> I have never believed it was a star. Just read the scriptures.
> It clearly doesn't describe the path a star would take. Who made
> up this star story anyway? Sort of sounds like St Nick getting
> turned into Santa Claus.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 6:53 PM, John Walley
> <john_walley@yahoo.com <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> Although not from a scientist's perspective, I looked into
> this a few years ago when he came to my church here. I think
> he is on to something.
>
> I was heavily in to RTB at the time and they have a competing
> theory but I still found his much more plausible. I think the
> weakness of his that most people seize on is that he dates the
> advent of the star (a planetary conjunction if I recall) a few
> years earlier than 4BC which is when it is supposed to be and
> I don't recall how he deals with that, but the rest of his
> presentation is very convincing. It relies heavily on
> assumptions of the astronomical and astrological knowledge and
> accepted understandings of the day but as most of here are
> non-literalists, that shouldn't be that much of an objection.
>
> I would definitely recommend you go and check it out. I think
> you will be impressed. A quick perusal of his site ahead of
> time would be wrothwhile as well.
>
> John
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Allan Harvey <steamdoc@q.com <mailto:steamdoc@q.com>>
> *To:* asa@calvin.edu <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
> *Sent:* Fri, November 20, 2009 7:42:11 PM
> *Subject:* [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?
>
> So is anybody here (particularly any astronomers) familiar
> with a guy named Rick Larson who has a supposedly
> scientific inspirational DVD presentation about the Star of
> Bethlehem. This appears to be his website:
> http://www.bethlehemstar.net/
>
> It will be shown (as an Adult Ed offering) at my church soon.
> Good, harmless, or something to steer people away from?
>
> Allan Harvey, ASA Member
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Received on Sun Nov 22 11:37:21 2009