Re: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?

Question. Did the Magi travel from several hundred miles east of Palestine
to find Herod?
If so, are you proposing two separate astronomical phenomena? Also,
Jupiter is in the ecliptic. It cannot appear south unless you are near the
arctic. I am still skeptical.

But lets say what you are proposing is true. Think what it means. The
solar system was pre-programmed billions of years ago to cause this
phenomena at exactly the right time.
Or, if the solar system didn't have the correct initial conditions perhaps
it was deliberately perturbed. Perhaps a large body passed through the
solar system in the recent past that caused it to perform the phenomena.
In either case we the equivalent of the anthropic principle, except it isn't
just the anthropic principle. Its the "Christ Principle". Terraforming for
a specific theological purpose, and a Christian one at that. Doesn't that
smell sort of ID-like?

It makes a lot more sense to me these phenomena are caused by interference
by intelligent beings (seraphim, cherubim, etc, etc). Unless one believes
humans really are the only intelligent life in our solar system. This
latter is consistent with the religion known as secular humanism.

I still remain skeptical, but i don't see how that means I am of little
faith. Or was that merely a jest?

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:15 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Oh, ye of little faith.
>
> Here is an excerpt from his site that deals with the "star in the east"
> issue. You will have to read the rest for yourself.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> *Westward Leading* (top <#12518d033460e28d_top>)
>
> *By the following June*, Jupiter had finished crowning Regulus. The Planet
> of Kings traveled on through the star field toward another spectacular
> rendezvous, this time with Venus, the Mother Planet. This conjunction was so
> close and so bright that it is today displayed in hundreds of planetaria
> around the world by scientists who may know nothing of Messiah. They do it
> because what Jupiter did makes such a great planetarium show. Jupiter
> appeared to *join* Venus. The planets could not be distinguished with the
> naked eye. If our magus had had a telescope, he could have seen that the
> planets sat one atop the other, like a figure eight. Each contributed its
> full brightness to what became the most brilliant star our man had ever
> seen.
>
>
>
> Jupiter completed this step of the starry dance as it was setting in the
> west. That evening, our Babylonian magus would have seen the spectacle of
> his career while facing toward Judea.
>
> No one alive had ever seen such a conjunction. If the Magi only began their
> travel plans in September, when they saw this sight nine months later,
> someone may have shouted "What are we waiting for? Mount up!" At the end of
> their travel, which may have taken weeks or months, these experts arrived in
> Jerusalem. They told their tale, and "all Jerusalem was disturbed." Herod
> wanted to know two things: when the Star had appeared, and where this baby
> was. The Magi presumably described the timing of events starting in
> September of 3 BC and continuing through June of 2 BC. Herod sent them to
> Bethlehem in search of the child with orders that they return to tell where
> he was.
>
>
>
> To qualify as the Star, Jupiter would have to have been ahead of the Magi
> as they trekked South from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. Sure enough, in December
> of 2 BC if the Magi looked south in the wee hours, there hung the Planet of
> Kings over the city of Messiah's birth.
>
> **
>
> *All but one* of the nine Biblical qualifications for the Star have now
> been plausibly satisfied:
>
> 1. The first conjunction signified birth by its association to the day
> with Virgo "birthing" the new moon. Some might argue that the unusual triple
> conjunction by itself could be taken to indicate a new king.
> 2. The Planet of King's coronation of the Star of Kings signified
> kingship.
> 3. The triple conjunction began with the Jewish New Year and took place
> within Leo, showing a connection with the Jewish tribe of Judah (and
> prophecies of the Jewish Messiah).
> 4. Jupiter rises in the east.
> 5. The conjunctions appeared at precise, identifiable times.
> 6. Herod was unaware of these things; they were astronomical events
> which had significance only when explained by experts.
> 7. The events took place over a span of time sufficient for the Magi to
> see them both from the East and upon their arrival in Jerusalem.
> 8. Jupiter was ahead of the Magi as they traveled south from Jerusalem
> to Bethlehem.
>
> But the ninth qualification would require that Jupiter stop over Bethlehem.
> *How* could a planet do that? And *did* Jupiter do it?
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> *To:* John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Allan Harvey <steamdoc@q.com>; asa@calvin.edu
> *Sent:* Sun, November 22, 2009 8:52:54 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?
>
> I agree. What ever made anybody think a bright light in the sky must always
> come from a solar mass? Those in 1 BC who were looking for the Christ
> child would have said a satellite is a star. They would have said the
> lights on a 747 are stars. If a helicopter with a floodlamp flew over them
> they would have said it was a star.
>
> Stars which are actual solar masses rise in the east, and set in the west,
> every night following the same path across the next few hours. They go east
> to west. So, if you have a clock, and sample their position exactly 1/2
> hour before dawn, you can say they are west of you. But at sunset they rise
> east of you. In the middle of the night they are directly above you
> (adjusted for latitude of course).
>
>
> Contrast this to a satellite in geosynchronous orbit. If it is above North
> America it would look to be in the west to someone in Palestine. And it
> would stay in that position all night.
>
> I don't think it was a geosynchronous satellite, but I don't think it was a
> solar mass either.
>
> If you want someone to go north to south, and you want the beacon to be an
> astronomical object, you'd have to put it in the southern hemisphere. So,
> after visiting the capitol, which direction did they head toward? The
> Mediteranean? Why did they then not end up in Spain?
>
> When they did find Bethlehem there's nothing to say the star didn't descent
> vertically and hover 300 feet over the town as they approached the town from
> the north. In fact, to be able to have them distinguish a little town from
> an area the size of Los Angeles that is exactly what would have been
> required. This was most likely not an astronomical event.
>
> So figuring out what the actual observation was, and then drawing an
> inference as to proximate cause, requires a complete reset in thinking.
> One has to think forensics, not theology. But every holiday season we are
> treated with the same dish of crapola. There is no natural explanation for
> the event.
>
> I remain "a cynic" ;)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 3:44 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> I'm curuious. What path would a star take? And how do you describe it?
>>
>> As far as who made it up, I guess you would have to blame the gospel
>> writers. I am not sure they had the distinction back them between stars and
>> planets, except for calling the stars that moved "wandering stars". Again
>> the astronomical understanding of the day has to taken into acount.
>>
>> If you need a visual to help you remember this distinction forverer,
>> nothing would be more effective than this priceless clip of the
>> multi-talented Lee Marvin finding his senstive side in the old 60's movie
>> Paint Your Wagon. :)
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbiRDNaDeo
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
>> *To:* John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
>> *Cc:* Allan Harvey <steamdoc@q.com>; asa@calvin.edu
>> *Sent:* Sat, November 21, 2009 1:48:10 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?
>>
>> I have never believed it was a star. Just read the scriptures. It
>> clearly doesn't describe the path a star would take. Who made up this star
>> story anyway? Sort of sounds like St Nick getting turned into Santa Claus.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 6:53 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Although not from a scientist's perspective, I looked into this a few
>>> years ago when he came to my church here. I think he is on to something.
>>>
>>> I was heavily in to RTB at the time and they have a competing theory but
>>> I still found his much more plausible. I think the weakness of his that most
>>> people seize on is that he dates the advent of the star (a planetary
>>> conjunction if I recall) a few years earlier than 4BC which is when it is
>>> supposed to be and I don't recall how he deals with that, but the rest of
>>> his presentation is very convincing. It relies heavily on assumptions of the
>>> astronomical and astrological knowledge and accepted understandings of the
>>> day but as most of here are non-literalists, that shouldn't be that much of
>>> an objection.
>>>
>>> I would definitely recommend you go and check it out. I think you will be
>>> impressed. A quick perusal of his site ahead of time would be wrothwhile as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Allan Harvey <steamdoc@q.com>
>>> *To:* asa@calvin.edu
>>> *Sent:* Fri, November 20, 2009 7:42:11 PM
>>> *Subject:* [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?
>>>
>>> So is anybody here (particularly any astronomers) familiar with a guy
>>> named Rick Larson who has a supposedly scientific inspirational DVD
>>> presentation about the Star of Bethlehem. This appears to be his website:
>>> http://www.bethlehemstar.net/
>>>
>>> It will be shown (as an Adult Ed offering) at my church soon. Good,
>>> harmless, or something to steer people away from?
>>>
>>> Allan Harvey, ASA Member
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

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Received on Sat Nov 21 18:22:35 2009