Nice. Ok good one. That joke is definitely on me but I didn't expect that from Schwarzwald. And it was late and I was tired but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I am too trusting of you guys. :)
But it is curious to see the various reactions on this. I agree it reveals what people are passionate about.
You guys are all real smart and are fortunate and blessed to have this all so obvious and clearcut for you. It is easy to dismiss Ray Comfort as a nutjob and not give him another moment of your thoughts but he represents a large segment of the leadership of the evangelical church and he has a vast consitituency of followers trapped under his spell. From someone who has just recently come in from the cold, I can appreciate just how much a voice of reason that the ASA can supply is needed by those that are out there.
And to Mike Gene I am not a member either primarily because I am not a scientist but I support the mission of ASA as I understand it. I understand the reluctance to get involved in political disputes and deal with idiots all the time but it sure would be nice if we had someone to do that. Just like paying taxes, we want someone else to do it.
Maybe it shouldn't fall to the ASA but someone should start a sister organization that would be the TE equivalent of the DI and that organization could just use ASA as a thinktank and policy research center. Maybe we get Francis Collins to head it when he retires in a few years. I know I am gambling with other people's chips here but I can't help trying to find a way to fix this problem in the church.
After discovering the ASA, I couldn't help but to think it was the best kept secret in the church. There is so much knowledge and wisdom here and so many people out there need it so badly, there should be a way to try to get it to them. At least that is what I am passionate about.
Thanks
John
----- Original Message ----
From: Murray Hogg <muzhogg@netspace.net.au>
To: ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Mon, November 16, 2009 9:49:08 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] What is the Christian reaction to Ray Comfort's use of "The Origin of Species"
Schwarzwald was indulging in a little satire, I believe John - with his point being that we don't need to denounce every piece of stupidity that comes down the pike.
But I guess whether you agree depends on what you're passionate about.
Blessings
Murray
John Walley wrote:
> Sorry maybe its just me being hopelessly out of touch and too old for this kind of thing but I didn't see any meaning or relevance to that video at all. If the woman is supposed to be Eugenie Scott, who is the guy? He does look somewhat like Christopher Hitchens though.
> I would have never inferred that is was an "affront to science education and scientists" but again maybe its just me. Do you have any basis for that or are you just deducing that? And how did you even know what a codpiece was, I had to look that up. :)
> Although we agree about being "duty-bound" and more proactive in the culture wars I am not sure this is the call to duty we answer.
> John
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Schwarzwald <schwarzwald@gmail.com>
> *To:* asa@calvin.edu
> *Sent:* Mon, November 16, 2009 7:58:22 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] What is the Christian reaction to Ray Comfort's use of "The Origin of Species"
>
> Heya Mike,
>
> The Christian community, and I should think think any association of Christian scientists, is duty-bound to provide an answer to slights like these. But I think there's a problem that needs to be addressed, one much larger than this latest relatively meager offering by Comfort.
>
> I'm talking, of course, about the music video "Danger! High Voltage!" by Electric Six.
>
> This so called "music video" at points takes place in what looks to be a Natural History museum, featuring a scantily-clad woman (who bears an uncanny likeness to Eugenie Scott) wearing a flashing brasierre, sitting on top of a biology artifact (in this case, a stuffed moose), making out with an archaeologist wearing a flashing codpiece. I think it's hard to ignore the implicit maligning of evolutionary theory invoked in this imagery.
>
> If that weren't enough, the song makes use of explicitly religious concepts. I quote, with my emphasis added.
>
> "Fire in the disco!
> Fire in the taco bell!
> Fire in the disco!
> /Fire in the gates of hell!/"
>
> I think it's clear that, unless and until the ASA explicitly denounces this affront to science education and scientists at large, Christianity will suffer in the eyes of intellectuals the world over. As of this writing, the youtube video of this (and there are multiple ones) has received over two million hits. That's, presumably, over two million people who are going to be deeply misled about archaeology, evolutionary theory, and Maxwell's equations - the latter of which lends itself to a natural security concern, as the American economy depends deeply on electricity.
>
> How long will Christians remind silent about this? Where is the ASA on this outrage? Where is Ken Miller? Where is the Pope?
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com <mailto:nucacids@wowway.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Bernie,
>
>
> “If this stuff isn’t repudiated by the Christian community, then it
> will serve as a self-mockery of the Christian community in the eyes
> of intellectuals. Dawkins will pick up on it, and Eugenie has also
> been doing battles with Comfort lately, so this will be more fodder
> for her arsenal.”
>
>
> True intellectuals do not peddle in stereotypes and
> guilt-by-association. Any “intellectual” trying to extrapolate
> Comfort’s antics to the larger Christian community would be a
> pseudo-intellectual.
>
>
> As for Comfort, I never heard of him until his stupid banana
> argument went viral in cyberspace. I even poked fun of it here:
>
>
> http://telicthoughts.com/the-orange/
>
>
> You might want to consider that Comfort is engaged in a *publicity
> stunt* to draw more attention to himself and you are asking the ASA
> to assist him in these regards. The best thing to do when dealing
> with an attention-seeking publicity hound is to ignore him.
>
> Besides, if the ASA is supposed to police such antics among people
> who are not members of the ASA, then where do you draw the line?
> Must the ASA comment on every future publicity stunt from any new
> creationist clamoring for attention?
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Dehler, Bernie <mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> *To:* asa <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:19 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [asa] What is the Christian reaction to Ray
> Comfort's use of "The Origin of Species"
>
> “They also didn't cite that Collins disagrees with them
> concerning chimpanzees in the Language of God.”
>
>
> RE: quoting Collins as pro-ID and then implying he is
> anti-evolution when he is actually pro-evolution.
>
> This sounds like a trick out of the playbook of the ‘Expelled”
> movie For example, in “expelled” they interview McGrath (on an
> unrelated topic), making/promoting the assumption that McGrath
> is pro-ID and anti-evolution. McGrath actually wrote negative
> comments about ID and is pro-evolution as far as I can tell.
>
>
> If this stuff isn’t repudiated by the Christian community, then
> it will serve as a self-mockery of the Christian community in
> the eyes of intellectuals. Dawkins will pick up on it, and
> Eugenie has also been doing battles with Comfort lately, so this
> will be more fodder for her arsenal.
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Rich Blinne [mailto:rich.blinne@gmail.com
> <mailto:rich.blinne@gmail.com>]
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:40 PM
> *To:* Dehler, Bernie
> *Cc:* asa; Randy Isaac
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] What is the Christian reaction to Ray
> Comfort's use of "The Origin of Species"
>
>
> You can see the pdf of it already:
>
>
> http://assets.livingwaters.com/pdf/OriginofSpecies.pdf
>
>
> Page 10 of the introduction cited Francis Collins from the
> following UK Times article that marked the release of /The
> Language of God/. (Randy, it might be interesting to get Dr.
> Collins' reaction given they also rehash the faux Nazi
> connection on pp. 36-9 which I believe caused a falling out
> between him and Coral Ridge.)
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article673663.ece
>
>
> They quoted this as follows:
>
>
>> To ponder how DNA’s amazing structure could have come together
>> by sheer accident is indeed amazing, and has even led some to
>> consider the possibility of design. Based on his study of DNA,
>> the director of the U.S. National human Genome research
>> Institute concluded there must be a God. Francis Collins, the
>> scientist who led the team that cracked the human genome,
>> believes it provides a rational basis for a Creator:
>>
>
>
> “When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1
> billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of
> information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can’t
> survey that going through page after page without a sense of
> awe. I can’t help but look at those pages and have a vague sense
> that this is giving me a glimpse of God’s mind.”
>
> After quoting Collins, Comfort says this:
>
>
>> DNA is an incredibly detailed language, revealing vast amounts
>> of information encoded in each and every living cell— design
>> which could not have arisen by purely naturalistic means. In
>> every other area of our world, we recognize that information
>> requires intelligence and design requires a designer. with our
>> present-day knowledge of DNA, this presents a formidable
>> challenge to Darwinian evolution.
>>
>
>
> But somehow strangely -- shall we say by chance? -- they didn't
> quote the following from the Times article a few paragraphs down:
>
>
>> “I see God’s hand at work through the mechanism of evolution.
>> If God chose to create human beings in his image and decided
>> that the mechanism of evolution was an elegant way to
>> accomplish that goal, who are we to say that is not the way,”
>> he says.
>>
>
> The next section goes onto the next page and attempts to explain
> away the similarities between the chimpanzee and human genomes
> using material from Answers in Genesis. They also didn't cite
> that Collins disagrees with them concerning chimpanzees in the
> /Language of God./
>
>
>> A further example of this close relationship stems from
>> examination of the anatomy of human and chimpanzee
>> chromosomes. Chromosomes are the visible manifestation of the
>> DNA genome, apparent in the light microscope at the time that
>> a cell divides. Each chromosome contains hundreds of genes.
>> Figure 5.3 shows a comparison of the chromosomes between a
>> human and a chimpanzee. The human has twenty-three pairs of
>> chromosomes, but the chimpanzee has twenty-four. The
>> difference in the chromosome number appears to be a
>> consequence of two ancestral chromosomes having fused together
>> to generate human chromosome 2. That the human must be a
>> fusion is further suggested by studying the gorilla and
>> orangutan — they each have twenty-four pairs of chromosomes,
>> looking much like the chimp.
>>
>> Recently, with the determination of the complete sequence of
>> the human genome, it has become possible to look at the
>> precise location where this proposed chromosomal fusion must
>> have happened. The sequence at that location — along the long
>> arm of chromosome 2 — is truly remarkable. Without getting
>> into the technical details, let me just say that special
>> sequences occur at the tips of all primate chromosomes. Those
>> sequences generally do not occur elsewhere. But they are found
>> right where evolution would have predicted, in the middle of
>> our fused second chromosome. The fusion that occurred as we
>> evolved from the apes has left its DNA imprint here. It is
>> very difficult to understand this observation without
>> postulating a common ancestor.
>>
>
> Collins also showed in Figure 5.1 how similar the inferred DNA
> sequences of mammalian species with what Darwin had in his 1837
> notebook for the tree of life. That would have been interesting
> in an introduction to Origin but again not there.
>
>
> Ray Comfort has every right to publish an introduction to a
> public domain work but at least it shouldn't be YEC's "greatest
> hits". It ends with a Gospel presentation. I don't believe it's
> going to be terribly effective and it's the tarnishing of the
> Gospel that I have the greatest concern.
>
>
> Rich Blinne
>
> Member ASA
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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Received on Tue Nov 17 05:12:35 2009
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