Re: [asa] A question on morals (OT and NT)

Hi Bernie,

The problem is that "clear AND concise" is are mutually incompatible criteria.

You can have concise: "Turn the other cheek"

Or

You can have clear: "If I was walking down-town with my wife and a mugger attacked I would do X"

But to ask for a pithy moral maxim and then complain that it doesn't SPECIFICALLY cover any and all conceivable circumstances one could possibly suggest?

As for your motives: the last time the subject came up you declared your intent to build a case against Christianity, right? So can we then presume that you're simply looking for points of contention rather than agreement?

Blessings,
Murray

Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> It is funny how morals are supposed to come from God, and Moses and Jesus taught specifically about how to deal with violence, but when I ask a specific question for a specific answer it seems so difficult to get a clear and concise answer as to how a Christian should respond specifically. You'd think this would be an easy one. Instead, my motives have to be continually questioned. And the answers continue to avoid specificity and continually aim for generalities.
>
> I think the line of questioning exposes the 'smoke and mirrors' of the claim that 'morals come from God.' And this is supposed to be one of the very easy ones... much easier than euthanasia or abortion, for example.
>
> Since one of my Christian friends said that he thinks the line of evidence of "morals come from God" as one of the best arguments for God, it is the subject of my next meetup group:
> http://www.meetup.com/sciligion/
>
> The author of "Good without God" (Greg Epstein, the Harvard Humanist Chaplain) is also coming to Portland and I hope to attend his lecture:
> http://www.meetup.com/cfi-portland/calendar/11663129/
>
> I haven't heard the interview with Greg at NPR yet, but it is here, fyi:
> http://www.hereandnow.org/2007/09/show-rundown-for-9202007
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dehler, Bernie
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:55 AM
> To: ASA
> Subject: RE: [asa] A question on morals (OT and NT)
>
> Pete said:
> " You seem to be assuming that "turn the other cheek" is intended by
> Jesus to have absolutely validity regardless of circumstances? Am I
> reading you correctly?"
>
> I'm trying to find out how you, as an experienced and highly trained Christian, actually apply the teaching of Christ to an actual practical application. So it s a specific example trying to draw out your personal opinion on a specific situation.
>
> Pete said:
> "As for other situations, re: C, if it is a troubled teen I would take
> steps to have him apprehended and given the help he needs. A is the
> only real option in the case of an oppressed wife or child. I don't
> think I need to go, do I?"
>
> I'm trying to find out how you would respond "in the heat" if you could pre-meditate your response. Yes- apprehending him would be another choice. That is in line with the option of self-defense, as opposed to 'turning the other cheek' (no defense) or repaying 'evil for evil' (an active-aggressive mirror-type response).
>
> When you say you would choose "A" (turn the cheek) for an oppressed wife or child, it sounds like you are saying to use this option when the physical threat isn't much of a threat. Is that why you mentioned spouse or child? So you are saying if they are a real physical threat to you (more powerful than you), then you would try self-defense (protect yourself, get away, or apprehend them if possible), but if they are weaker, you would turn the other cheek?
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pete Enns [mailto:peteenns@mac.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:04 AM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Subject: Re: [asa] A question on morals (OT and NT)
>
> Bernie,
>
> You seem to be assuming that "turn the other cheek" is intended by
> Jesus to have absolutely validity regardless of circumstances? Am I
> reading you correctly?
>
> As for other situations, re: C, if it is a troubled teen I would take
> steps to have him apprehended and given the help he needs. A is the
> only real option in the case of an oppressed wife or child. I don't
> think I need to go, do I?
>
> I'm not sure what you're getting at. What are you trying to
> demonstrate, for, surely, I sense more here than an innocent line of
> questioning.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2009, at 11:07 AM, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>
>> Pete said:
>> " Accepting for the sake of argument the three options you give, It
>> depends on the situation."
>>
>> Then could you give two examples of situations that would give you
>> different answers?
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pete Enns [mailto:peteenns@mac.com]
>> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 3:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: [asa] A question on morals (OT and NT)
>>
>> Accepting for the sake of argument the three options you give, It
>> depends on the situation.
>>
>> On Nov 8, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>
>>> Pete said:
>>> "Yes, Jesus was correct. Next question."
>>>
>>> Next question, regarding specific application:
>>>
>>> Pete, suppose someone is mad at you and slaps you very hard across
>>> the face, so hard as to even knock out a tooth.
>>>
>>> Which would be the best Christian response for you (as an immediate
>>> "next step" response in this confrontation):
>>> A. Turn the other cheek, making it easy for them to strike again
>>> B. Defend yourself against another attack and/or try to leave
>>> C. Strike back to "teach them a lesson"
>>>
>>> If you don't like those options, and think there is another one,
>>> please specify.
>>>
>>> ...Bernie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Pete Enns [mailto:peteenns@mac.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:19 PM
>>> To: Dehler, Bernie
>>> Cc: ASA
>>> Subject: Re: [asa] A question on morals (OT and NT)
>>>
>>> Yes, Jesus was correct.
>>>
>>> Next question.
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>> On Nov 8, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>>
>>>> "It is worth asking, esp. in the evangelical world, whether we are
>>>> not
>>>> expecting too much of the Bible as a rule book of propositions
>>>> rather
>>>> than as a book that reflects active theological thinking."
>>>>
>>>> Hi Pete- overall- as far as Christian interpretation of things, I
>>>> pretty much agree with you. However, my question is more specific
>>>> to the time and place of Jesus' "active theological thinking."
>>>>
>>>> When Jesus talked about "turning the other cheek" I think what he
>>>> meant, given the context is pretty clear. And I think we might
>>>> agree on what he meant. My question goes beyond what most
>>>> Christians want to do, and this is ask the question "was Jesus
>>>> correct?" (I'm sure most Christian philosophers are trained to ask
>>>> such questions so it is no problem for most of them; but all other
>>>> Christians probably think it is out-of-bounds to "question God.")
>>>>
>>>> ...Bernie
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
>>>> On Behalf Of Pete Enns
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:49 AM
>>>> To: Murray Hogg
>>>> Cc: ASA
>>>> Subject: Re: [asa] A question on morals (OT and NT)
>>>>
>>>> I'll try to comment more later, but I agree with this. A former
>>>> professor of mine, Paul Hanson, used to talk about the "form/reform"
>>>> dynamic on the OT, where particular ways of thinking gain assent but
>>>> then are themselves later reformed/changed. Chronicles is one global
>>>> example of this.
>>>>
>>>> It is worth asking, esp. in the evangelical world, whether we are
>>>> not
>>>> expecting too much of the Bible as a rule book of propositions
>>>> rather
>>>> than as a book that reflects active theological thinking.
>>>>
>>>> Some of you may no longer be wondering why I left WTS..... :-)
>>>>
>>>> Pete
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 4, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Murray Hogg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Pete,
>>>>>
>>>>> I can see where the Talmud might be an interesting analogue - but
>>>>> I'd have to play with it a bit myself.
>>>>>
>>>>> As it is, the suggestion spawns one random thought:
>>>>> Regardless of what dates we put on the various OT books and
>>>>> portions
>>>>> thereof it seems to be pretty evident that the OT isn't the
>>>>> unvarnished account of Israel's history that many would like it to
>>>>> be. But this fact alone suggests that one doesn't need to even go
>>>>> as
>>>>> far as the Talmud to discover a dynamic engagement with the
>>>>> tradition as we already see just this very thing within the pages
>>>>> of
>>>>> the canonical OT itself. The idea, then, that the covenant
>>>>> community
>>>>> EVER had a static notion of scripture might be a tad unrealistic
>>>>> and
>>>>> we may well need to accept that dynamic engagement with the
>>>>> tradition has ALWAYS been part-and-parcel of the covenant
>>>>> community's practice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, the tradition eventually ends up becoming codified -
>>>>> first in the OT and subsequently in the Talmud and NT (same sort of
>>>>> thing happens in Islam with the Koran and Hadiths) - but I wonder
>>>>> (and it's just an idle musing for now) just what this suggests for
>>>>> our theory of Scripture? All too often the focus is on the
>>>>> codification. But what happens if one focuses on the dynamic nature
>>>>> of the tradition in its formation and subsequent reception?
>>>>>
>>>>> Could it be that the discontinuity and the continuity are, in fact,
>>>>> one and the same thing? That is, might it not be the case that the
>>>>> one constant throughout the entire history of the tradition is that
>>>>> the tradition itself has always been dynamically appropriated?
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps our maxim should be "Plus ca change, plus c'est le meme
>>>>> chose" or something of that order?
>>>>>
>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>> Murray
>>>>>
>>>>> Pete Enns wrote:
>>>>>> I think trajectory is a good model for the relationship between
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> testament.
>>>>>> Another model I have toyed with--very simply--is that the NT is
>>>>>> analogous to to the Talmud. Both reflect attempts to engage the
>>>>>> Bible/OT in view of changing circumstances: for Jews, the exile
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> for Christians the death and resurrection of the messiah.
>>>>>> I think the trajectory and Talmud models together aim at
>>>>>> addressing
>>>>>> the continuity and discontinuity seen in the NT vis-a-vis the OT.
>>>>>> To get back to the original point, I think Bernie is concerned
>>>>>> about the fact that discontinuity is something that resides in a
>>>>>> book that is supposedly written on some level by God.
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Received on Mon Nov 9 13:48:55 2009