RE: [asa] ID question? - TE does or doesn't 'limit evolution'?

To spell it out in more detail:

           Polkinhorne example Dolphin example

           ------------------- ------------------

Savior: Oskar Schindler Dolphins

Enemy: Nazi's Great White shark

Victim: Jews humans

Do these examples have anything to do with either of them confirming or denying 'implicit calculation of genetic advantage.' And why does 'implicit calculation of genetic advantage' have to be conflated with evolution, as if this proves that altruistic behavior is against evolution? I'm not defending Dawkins and 'the selfish gene' but defending evolution and all the consequences of it, such as altruistic behavior. I don't think you can prove that altruistic behavior is some how 'anti-evolution' if that is your point (as if altruism can't arise because from evolution, so it must be supernatural). If your point is simply that 'altruistic behavior' is anti- 'the selfish gene,' maybe so (I don't care for the 'selfish gene' idea, but I haven't read the book so I could maybe change my mind).

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 8:48 AM
To: asa
Subject: RE: [asa] ID question? - TE does or doesn't 'limit evolution'?

Ted said:

"I'll close with this pithy little sentence from Polkinghorne, "Belief in God in an Age of Science," p. 18: "Did Oskar Schindler take great risks to rescue more than a thousand Jews from extermination because of some implicit calculation of genetic advantage?""

I don't see how that proves anything. The other day on the animal channel they showed a group of dolphins that violently swam around a group of human swimmers (strangers) for about an hour, to stop a great white from attacking. The humans didn't know what was happening- they actually thought it was a dolphin attack on them for most of the time.

So how does this dolphin datapoint compare with Polkinghorne's example?

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Ted Davis

Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 7:02 AM

To: asa; Gregory Arago

Subject: Re: [asa] ID question? - TE does or doesn't 'limit evolution'?

>>> Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> 10/29/2009 5:56 AM >>> writes:

Again, let me follow up on this in order to be crystal clear.

Ted wrote:

"So, Gregory, what exactly do you mean? Or, have I answered your vacuous claim satisfactorily at this point?"

What is at stake here is whether or not 'evolution' has *any* limits, according to 'TE.' I did not ask simply 'what are TE's doing?' but rather 'what are TE's doing...to limit evolution?'

If you can't 'limit evolution,' then 'evolution' is effectively 'unlimited,' i.e. a totalizing ideology.

This is not a vacuous claim (i.e. that TEs are doing nothing or very, very little to limit evolution) and it is not a vacuous question to ask, though it is certainly one that asks people to check their grammar carefully and to consider changing the way they communicate about something if there is a better alternative.

***

Ted replies briefly. Gregory, when someone like Francisco Ayala or Arthur Peacocke or John Polkinghorne says that evolution cannot explain morality, mathematics, religion, or culture -- or evolutionary biology itself, for that matter -- then IMO that counts as doing plenty to limit evolution. The reason (perhaps) why you fail to see this, Gregory, is that TEs such as these folks don't challenge the *biology* of evolution. Rather, they challenge what it means to "explain" something. I'll close with this pithy little sentence from Polkinghorne, "Belief in God in an Age of Science," p. 18: "Did Oskar Schindler take great risks to rescue more than a thousand Jews from extermination because of some implicit calculation of genetic advantage?"

I see no indication here, Gregory, that evolution is effectively unlimited in Polkinghorne's understanding of it. None.

Ted

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Received on Thu Oct 29 11:56:52 2009