Re: [asa] ID question? - TE does or doesn't 'limit evolution'?

Again, let me follow up on this in order to be crystal clear. Ted wrote: "So, Gregory, what exactly do you mean?  Or, have I answered your vacuous claim satisfactorily at this point?" What is at stake here is whether or not 'evolution' has *any* limits, according to 'TE.' I did not ask simply 'what are TE's doing?' but rather 'what are TE's doing...to limit evolution?' If you can't 'limit evolution,' then 'evolution' is effectively 'unlimited,' i.e. a totalizing ideology. This is not a vacuous claim (i.e. that TEs are doing nothing or very, very little to limit evolution) and it is not a vacuous question to ask, though it is certainly one that asks people to check their grammar carefully and to consider changing the way they communicate about something if there is a better alternative. Unfortunately, I guess that the strong desire to *not look like a creationist* will cloud the answer of most TEs, and disallow them to take the question seriously. Thanks, Gregory ________________________________ From: Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> To: Ted Davis <TDavis@messiah.edu>; asa <asa@calvin.edu> Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 12:38:37 AM Subject: Re: [asa] ID question? - TE does or doesn't 'limit evolution'? Hi Ted, Though I appreciate you responding to the other message I wrote in a thread about Orthodox Christianity and 'kreationizm,' I wonder still if you will respond to this one. The history of 'TE' is not that important to me because I don't find it to be such a coherent position. Surely I will also respond to you later on that thread, but the serious issue still stands in this one and I hope you haven't forgotten it. Just what are you doing, Ted, as a 'theistic evolutionist,' that serves to 'limit' the meaning of the term 'evolution' in (natural) science, philosophy and as an ideology? Talking 'objectively' about history is one thing, of course, but expressing one's personal views on a topic is something else. Gregory ________________________________ From: Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> To: Ted Davis <TDavis@messiah.edu>; asa <asa@calvin.edu>; David Campbell <pleuronaia@gmail.com>; George Murphy <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com> Sent: Sat, October 24, 2009 3:26:03 PM Subject: Re: [asa] ID question? Hi Ted, Though I appreciate the motivation behind your post, i.e. to defend Christians who accept certain, if not all aspects of what is called 'evolutionary theory,' i.e. which you call TE, unfortunately in this case, you missed the point entirely. I asked very specifically, two times, at the beginning and end of my post, what TEs are doing to 'limit' the meaning of the term 'evolution.' On the other hand you responded with a defence of colleagues and friends, though no defence was needed as no attack or 'calling into doubt' was made. Of course, people that you call 'TE' are actively 'doing something.' That was not the issue, nor does this 'happens all of the time' defense apply to what I'm asking. You know full well, Ted, that I am challenging the notion of 'universal evolution' or 'total evolution' as it is known to some in the ASA. Again, the issue is: "What are TEs doing...to 'limit' the meaning of 'evolution'?" Or, a further questin, to what I believe is the approach taken by many TEs: Is there 'no limit' to the meaning of 'evolution,' i.e. does it function as something of a GUT since it is tied so intimately together with their/your theologies? Do you have an answer for these questions, Ted? They are imo extremely important both for how Americans view 'intelligent design' as well as for how they view the 'accommodation' of science with theology and worldview expressed by TEs and ECs. And to repeat for the record, I don't think the IDM has generated satisfactory answers yet either! I've read ten out of the 13 names you mention, Ted, and, just like Peacocke and before him Dobzhansky and Teilhard de Chardin, none of them has cracked the code of how to possibly 'limit' evolutionary theory so that it does not become a type of GUT-accommodated-to-theology. Perhaps this is one reason why George does not self-label himself as a 'TE' - i.e. he sees the tendency to exaggerate the 'meaning' of 'evolution' far beyond its appropriate reach? Gregory p.s. yes, i've heard of S.C.M. - add him as number 14, same result ________________________________ From: Ted Davis <TDavis@messiah.edu> To: asa <asa@calvin.edu>; David Campbell <pleuronaia@gmail.com>; George Murphy <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>; Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 5:35:56 PM Subject: Re: [asa] ID question? So, Gregory, what exactly do you mean?  Or, have I answered your vacuous claim satisfactorily at this point? Ted  Ted is admittedly annoyed and perplexed--provoked, to borrow Gregory's language.  Hold the phone, he says to Gregory. ... __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/

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Received on Thu Oct 29 06:05:09 2009