Re: [asa] Dawkins new book - objective

No matter how respectful you may think you're being, you don't really wish
to have a discussion. When flaws in your claims are pointed out you ignore
them & go on repeating yourself. We've put up with this for at least a
month & to begin with were pretty respectful to someone who declared his
intention to be "antichrist". But it's pretty clear that your playing of
the same old tune over & over has grown tiresome. If you were really
"respectful" you would politely say good-bye and stop wasting people's time.

Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 5:31 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins new book - objective

> Murray said:
> "Guess why half the list don't want to waste their time on responding to
> your inanities?"
>
> If you don't want to have a respectful discussion I wish you would just
> keep your thoughts to yourself. I don't need to hear your abuse.
>
> You said:
> "Fact is, Bernie, that the Christian life is a life of discipleship - and
> that entails a PROCESS of putting off the old man and putting on Christ, a
> PROCESS of renewing the mind, a PROCESS of growth and discovery, a PROCESS
> of learning about God and his ways."
>
> I did that for 25 years... up until a few weeks ago...
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 1:20 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins new book - objective
>
> Whether God exists or not, people still have different levels of maturity,
> emotional intelligence, and intellect - so I don't see how that point has
> any bearing on the question: except to undermine your own argument. If
> personal factors impact our moral judgement, then they do so regardless of
> one's basis for morality.
>
> Incidentally, I notice you direct your remarks to the "true believers"
> amongst us: which kinda illustrates a point, namely that YOU are the only
> one around here committing the "true Scotsman fallacy." I wouldn't raise
> the point except for your habit of refusing to acknowledge that most, if
> not all, of the people on this list don't share your concept of what
> Christianity is.
>
> I certainly haven't seen any claim - except from yourself - that
> formulating a Christian ethic entails simply lining up a few Bible verses
> and 'voilà' - a statement of absolute moral truth on ANY issue you care to
> imagine! Yet you STILL insist on asking us to defend that thesis (and
> silly Schwarzwald thinks you don't know what a straw-man is!). Well, guess
> what's not going to happen? Guess why half the list don't want to waste
> their time on responding to your inanities?
>
> Fact is, Bernie, that the Christian life is a life of discipleship - and
> that entails a PROCESS of putting off the old man and putting on Christ, a
> PROCESS of renewing the mind, a PROCESS of growth and discovery, a PROCESS
> of learning about God and his ways. And that PROCESS involves being led by
> the Spirit - not law, not moral rules, not rational deduction from first
> principles - but of STRUGGLING with the tensions of life. With good and
> evil, wisdom and foolishness, knowledge and doubt.
>
> It's discovering that the thinks we held with utter certainty are often
> least true, and learning that OUR version of the truth often stands in
> stark contrast with the one who is truth himself: that's truth HIMself,
> not ITself, because for Christians truth is a person not a set of abstract
> propositional statements. It's not something we possess, but something to
> which we stand in relationship. And we can only apprehend this truth, to
> the extent that we are open to his voice.
>
> To know the truth is not to have a correct proposition - moral,
> theological, or otherwise - that one can defend, it's to know the Father
> through the Son by the Holy Spirit.
>
> And what follows from that is that absolute truth CAN be known, but only
> if one is prepared to acknowledge that the discovery of truth is a process
> which never comes to completion - not even remotely: "now we see in a
> mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall
> know just as I also am known." (1 Cor 13:12).
>
> So pick any example you want, Bernie, you'll never know the proper
> Christian response until you're willing to surrender yourself to the
> Shepherd and follow his voice. THAT is the way God provides for us to
> discover his morals and I'm sorry that, by the very nature of the process,
> I can't reduce it to an abstract moral argument that you can analyse.
>
> Blessings,
> Murray
>
> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>> There are two positions I'm hearing:
>>
>> 1. Morals come from God.
>>
>> 2. Morals can be deduced without the need for God.
>>
>> If #1 is true, it would seem reasonable to me that God would also provide
>> a way to discover these morals. But on tricky issues (euthanasia and
>> suicide on the battle field (King Saul's case), for example), there seems
>> to be no absolute answer. Born-again Christians have different opinions.
>> So it is apparent that if God does give morals, he gave no sure means for
>> his followers to discover them... and I'm talking about the 'true
>> believers' and not those 'Christian' in name only.
>>
>> If #2 is true, then you'd expect different answers because people have
>> different levels of maturity, emotional intelligence, and intellect.
>>
>> If someone things that God's morals could be discovered clearly, it would
>> be good to pick an example (like euthanasia or battle suicide), and work
>> from the bottom-up to follow the train of thought. But I haven't seen
>> anyone with the willingness to try that. And I think that George agrees
>> that the moral answers can't be clearly discovered, based on his paper
>> covering the euthanasia example, after all is considered, concluding that
>> the final outcome is ultimately a personal decision.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Murray Hogg
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:47 AM
>> To: ASA
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins new book - objective
>>
>> And people read the Bible differently, so why should agreement amongst
>> Christians be expected?
>>
>> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>> "It just seems so worthless to say that morals are grounded in reason,
>>> then when atheists get together they can't agree on what the correct
>>> moral position is."
>>>
>>> That is because people reason differently, so why shouldn't it be
>>> expected???
>>>
>>> ...Bernie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>>> Behalf Of Murray Hogg
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:21 AM
>>> To: ASA
>>> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins new book - objective
>>>
>>> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>>> It just seems so worthless to say that morals are grounded in God, then
>>>> when Godly people get together they can't agree on what the correct
>>>> moral position is. Euthanasia was the last specific issue I talked to
>>>> George about.
>>>>
>>>> ,,,Bernie
>>> To which the obvious response...
>>>
>>> It just seems so worthless to say that morals are grounded in reason,
>>> then when atheists get together they can't agree on what the correct
>>> moral position is.
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>
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Received on Wed Oct 28 18:07:08 2009