Re: [asa] Dawkins new book - objective

Bernie, those cannot be the only positions you've "heard" here - because
quite a lot of the conversation here has been devoted to questioning whether
"morality" exists in any meaningful way given certain worldviews
(atheist/materialist naturalism, as I've loosely termed it). And I certainly
haven't said that morality can only come from God - unless you think that
the only alternative to naturalism is theism, in which case you're just not
informed about this subject. (Now, I would argue that given what western
theists have traditionally believed about God, non-naturalists who take
morality and the like as fundamental are going to come up with something
that's shockingly close to God - but that's another story.)

As for your estimations of the positions, they seem rather ad hoc. Which
you're welcome to, but I'll refrain from commenting on them. Doesn't seem to
be much point.

On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>wrote:

> There are two positions I'm hearing:
>
> 1. Morals come from God.
>
> 2. Morals can be deduced without the need for God.
>
> If #1 is true, it would seem reasonable to me that God would also provide a
> way to discover these morals. But on tricky issues (euthanasia and suicide
> on the battle field (King Saul's case), for example), there seems to be no
> absolute answer. Born-again Christians have different opinions. So it is
> apparent that if God does give morals, he gave no sure means for his
> followers to discover them... and I'm talking about the 'true believers' and
> not those 'Christian' in name only.
>
> If #2 is true, then you'd expect different answers because people have
> different levels of maturity, emotional intelligence, and intellect.
>
> If someone things that God's morals could be discovered clearly, it would
> be good to pick an example (like euthanasia or battle suicide), and work
> from the bottom-up to follow the train of thought. But I haven't seen
> anyone with the willingness to try that. And I think that George agrees
> that the moral answers can't be clearly discovered, based on his paper
> covering the euthanasia example, after all is considered, concluding that
> the final outcome is ultimately a personal decision.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:47 AM
> To: ASA
> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins new book - objective
>
> And people read the Bible differently, so why should agreement amongst
> Christians be expected?
>
> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> > "It just seems so worthless to say that morals are grounded in reason,
> then when atheists get together they can't agree on what the correct moral
> position is."
> >
> > That is because people reason differently, so why shouldn't it be
> expected???
> >
> > ...Bernie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:21 AM
> > To: ASA
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins new book - objective
> >
> > Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> >> It just seems so worthless to say that morals are grounded in God, then
> when Godly people get together they can't agree on what the correct moral
> position is. Euthanasia was the last specific issue I talked to George
> about.
> >>
> >> ,,,Bernie
> >
> > To which the obvious response...
> >
> > It just seems so worthless to say that morals are grounded in reason,
> then when atheists get together they can't agree on what the correct moral
> position is.
> >
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> >
> >
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Received on Wed Oct 28 15:52:05 2009