Re: [asa] (euthanasia) morals/ethics

My supposed "pissy comment" was a simple statement of the truth.
 Sometimes - as with your repeated misrepresentations - it's necessary to do
that bluntly.

Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] (euthanasia) morals/ethics

> George said:
> "Obviously you read my article (if at all) very carelessly &
> tendentiously.
> No surprise - that seems to be how you read everything."
>
> I will not respond in kind.
>
> May I remind you (and others who like to write pissy comments):
>
> 1 Peter 3:14-16 (New International Version)
> 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do
> not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." 15But in your hearts set
> apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who
> asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with
> gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who
> speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of
> their slander.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 1:30 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie; ASA
> Subject: Re: [asa] (euthanasia) morals/ethics
>
> Obviously you read my article (if at all) very carelessly & tendentiously.
> No surprise - that seems to be how you read everything.
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 3:41 PM
> Subject: RE: [asa] (euthanasia) morals/ethics
>
>
>> Hi George- I know you meant that "not every answer is in chapter and
>> verse" but that "the Bible generally gives us direction." So my question,
>> what direction???
>>
>> I just read your article. And your answer is that there is no answer.
>> (And
>> yes, I see the 'direction' or hints for deciding the issue that you are
>> providing.)
>>
>> Oh, so what's left? Reason. Oh, now you are at the same place as the
>> atheist. both relying on reason. And the result: one Christian may agree
>> with an atheist in pulling the plug, and another Christian may agree with
>> another atheist in prolonging life every second possible.
>>
>> So why didn't God tell someone? He doesn't care? Because this issue isn't
>> as important as abortion or hom.ose-xuality (which the Bible does seem to
>> directly address)? And I don't think this is a modern problem. Look at
>> how
>> King Saul died, by suicide. King Saul's "good Samaritan" finished him off
>> as Saul pleaded, yet David had this guy killed. Seems to me like David
>> was
>> in the wrong there (David should be guilty of murder, in my opinion, for
>> having this guy killed). Do you agree?
>>
>> RE:
>> 2 Samuel 1
>> David Hears of Saul's Death
>> 1 After the death of Saul, David returned from defeating the Amalekites
>> and stayed in Ziklag two days. 2 On the third day a man arrived from
>> Saul's camp, with his clothes torn and with dust on his head. When he
>> came
>> to David, he fell to the ground to pay him honor.
>> 3 "Where have you come from?" David asked him.
>> He answered, "I have escaped from the Israelite camp."
>> 4 "What happened?" David asked. "Tell me."
>> He said, "The men fled from the battle. Many of them fell and died. And
>> Saul and his son Jonathan are dead."
>> 5 Then David said to the young man who brought him the report, "How do
>> you
>> know that Saul and his son Jonathan are dead?"
>> 6 "I happened to be on Mount Gilboa," the young man said, "and there was
>> Saul, leaning on his spear, with the chariots and riders almost upon him.
>> 7 When he turned around and saw me, he called out to me, and I said,
>> 'What
>> can I do?'
>> 8 "He asked me, 'Who are you?'
>> " 'An Amalekite,' I answered.
>> 9 "Then he said to me, 'Stand over me and kill me! I am in the throes of
>> death, but I'm still alive.'
>> 10 "So I stood over him and killed him, because I knew that after he had
>> fallen he could not survive. And I took the crown that was on his head
>> and
>> the band on his arm and have brought them here to my lord."
>> 11 Then David and all the men with him took hold of their clothes and
>> tore
>> them. 12 They mourned and wept and fasted till evening for Saul and his
>> son Jonathan, and for the army of the LORD and the house of Israel,
>> because they had fallen by the sword.
>> 13 David said to the young man who brought him the report, "Where are you
>> from?"
>> "I am the son of an alien, an Amalekite," he answered.
>> 14 David asked him, "Why were you not afraid to lift your hand to destroy
>> the LORD's anointed?"
>> 15 Then David called one of his men and said, "Go, strike him down!" So
>> he
>> struck him down, and he died. 16 For David had said to him, "Your blood
>> be
>> on your own head. Your own mouth testified against you when you said, 'I
>> killed the LORD's anointed.' "
>>
>> .Bernie
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 9:35 AM
>> To: Dehler, Bernie; ASA
>> Subject: Re: [asa] (euthanasia) morals/ethics
>>
>> Your characterization of my position is quite inaccurate. What I have
>> said
>> is that the God in whom Christians believe provides a basis for ethics. I
>> have never said that the Bible gives us the answers for all ethical &
>> moral questions that arise. In discussing the 10 Commandments with 8th
>> graders for confirmation I always made a point of giving them a few
>> mini-case studies in which the demands of 2 or more commandments were, at
>> least superficially, in conflict. That is precisely because I didn't want
>> them to think that all the problems they'd be faced with could be dealt
>> with by pulling out an appropriate Bible verse. In other words, welcome
>> to
>> the real world.
>>
>> A brief article of mine that deals with euthanasia & related matters,
>> "Death in a High-Tech Age", is at
>> http://www2.elca.org/faithandscience/covalence/archive/pre2004/covalence_vol3_no3.pdf .
>>
>> Shalom
>> George
>> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>> To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:16 PM
>> Subject: RE: [asa] (euthanasia) morals/ethics
>>
>>> For those who think like George, that morals come from God and can be
>>> discovered from the Bible, how do you find the right position on
>>> euthanasia, or 'mercy killing?'
>>>
>>> Even as a Christian, I saw nothing wrong with a person taking their life
>>> if they had some disease that they would just eventually waste away
>>> anyway. (As the argument goes, if we can kill an animal out of mercy,
>>> why
>>> not so much more a human?) I've had relatives that died that way-
>>> slipping into coma and eventually dying or going through a long period
>>> of
>>> ever worsening dementia before dying.
>>>
>>> I think the simpleton approach, likely the Catholic approach, is to say
>>> that it is wrong to take one's life in all cases; no exceptions. Maybe
>>> we
>>> could even argue that this Catholic position is immoral, as it prolongs
>>> needless suffering (it is ironic how there is such an emphasis on
>>> clinging to life as if this is the only life there is; but Catholics
>>> should think of death as a 'coming home party' if they believe in an
>>> afterlife, and not fear it.)
>>>
>>> Some may be worried about the slippery slope; allow euthanasia in a good
>>> case, then what about other trivial cases, like when a teenager has a
>>> bad
>>> day at school and wants to end it all? To me that is akin to saying
>>> driving licenses shouldn't be given out because children may want one or
>>> incompetent people may want one. Solution: making reasonable rules.
>>> (Note, "reasonable" comes from "reason.")
>>>
>>> So what is the right Christian stance on euthanasia? How can it be
>>> discovered? How does God tell us? And if God doesn't tell us, why not?
>>> And if He doesn't tell us on this one, why does He tell us on others?
>>> For
>>> example, is the gay issue more important, so God tells us about that
>>> one;
>>> but euthanasia isn't as important?
>>>
>>> I'm just saying lets see how the rubber meets the road. If the Bible or
>>> God is our source for morals, what is this source saying? And how can we
>>> discover it?
>>>
>>> And beware the 'no true scotsman' fallacy where you might say only the
>>> 'true' Christians have the right answer ('true' meaning the sect you
>>> belong to):
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
>>>
>>> ...Bernie
>>
>>
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Received on Thu Oct 22 17:16:30 2009