Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark

I can't find a clear statement on this but I'd be very surprised if Hagee
weren't also part of "the cancer of YECism."

Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Burgeson (ASA member)" <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
To: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Cc: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark

>I agree with you on two points:
>
> 1. Hagee is a "cancer" to Christianity. There are others.
> 2. Christians ought to oppose him (and others) more strongly.
>
> The ASA (and me) concentrate too much on the cancer of YECism. But
> that is what we are good at (or perhaps not so good, but at least
> fervent) about.
>
> On 10/20/09, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
>> "The statement that there is "no opposition" to Hagee is false."
>>
>> I meant by way of protestors at his events. Those who attend his events
>> all
>> think they are doing the right Christian thing and are clueless to any
>> opposition. I know- I've talked to them. I was even booted out of one
>> small event gathering when an organizer recognized me (because of my face
>> on
>> my old blog), and I had only the intention of being there to learn and
>> ask
>> questions if they has a Q&A time. I had no intention of disturbance.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:02 AM
>> To: Dehler, Bernie; ASA
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>
>> Since you persistently miss my point & attack things I have no wish to
>> defend, there's no point in my responding further to you on this thread.
>>
>> The statement that there is "no opposition" to Hagee is false. See,
>> e.g.,
>> 2 articles in the theological journal dialog, "Toward a Lutheran Response
>> to
>> Christian Zionism" by Robert O. Smith & a response by Tony Richie.
>> Unfortunately in theology as in economics, bad money drives out good.
>>
>> Shalom
>> George
>> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Dehler, Bernie<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>> To: ASA<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 10:38 AM
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>
>> George said:
>> "My post was about the sources of our ethics, not the conclusions they
>> draw
>> from those sources. I have no use for the theology or politics of John
>> Hagee but that is quite irrelevant to the point I made. So are
>> Christians
>> suffering at the hands of Israelis, the Holocaust, the firebombing of
>> Dresden, the Tasmanian genocide & all the other examples you might think
>> of."
>>
>> My point is that some Christians claim their morals come from the Bible
>> and
>> are actually making the world a much worse place, even a worse place for
>> fellow Christians. That is Pastor Hagee and his CUFI group. He should
>> be
>> rebuked by evangelicals. Instead, he is reaching into evangelical
>> churches
>> to have his "night to honor Israel" party fundraisers. It seems like his
>> group is growing, and not being rebuked by the church at large (yes,
>> there
>> is some Christian opposition, though, but nothing significant). It is a
>> cancer in the church, supposedly a Bible-based cancer. When I was a
>> Christian I tried to rebuke his group with my online ministry using
>> Scripture to show how he was misinterpreting Scripture.
>>
>> I am not saying this is hypocritical; as they are actually trying to base
>> their prejudice on the Bible. Hagee's favorite verse is the one that
>> Gods
>> says He'll bless those who bless Abraham. Evidently he's trying to seek
>> God's blessing. He must not understand the blessings of Christ! He
>> doesn't
>> comprehend that everything was fulfilled in Christ. He's a church cancer
>> like YEC is a church cancer. And the church cancers thrive because
>> fellow
>> Christians are unwilling to clean house. The apologetics leaders are
>> sleeping on the job, because it is of their own. They are so focused on
>> the
>> evil outside that they turn a blind eye to evil inside (also because they
>> want funding from the evil inside, too; the evil inside is a money
>> source.).
>>
>> Just my thoughts. ;-)
>>
>> ...Bernie
>> ________________________________
>> From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 2:03 PM
>> To: Dehler, Bernie; ASA
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>
>> My post was about the sources of our ethics, not the conclusions they
>> draw
>> from those sources. I have no use for the theology or politics of John
>> Hagee but that is quite irrelevant to the point I made. So are
>> Christians
>> suffering at the hands of Israelis, the Holocaust, the firebombing of
>> Dresden, the Tasmanian genocide & all the other examples you might think
>> of.
>>
>> Of course Francis Collins uses his brains in thinking about ethical
>> issues.
>> No intelligent Christian today imagines that you can get all your ethical
>> guidance about the use of modern technologies just by quoting Bible
>> verses
>> but that doesn't mean that their beliefs about those things aren't
>> grounded
>> in, or sometimes limited by, what scripture has to say. See, e.g.,
>> chapters
>> 9-11 of The Cosmos in the Light of the Cross.
>>
>> Shalom
>> George
>> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dehler, Bernie"
>> <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>>
>> To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>>
>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 12:45 PM
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>
>>>I think one of the strong points for Francis Collins is that he is very
>>> interested in ethics in medicine. However, I could see (imagine) him
>>> leading a panel discussion on ethics on a certain issue with fellow
>>> scientists, and never bringing up God or the Bible. If there is no
>>> reference to God or the Bible, how can it be important? I think
>>> Christians
>>> underestimate how much they use reason alone (and humanistic ideas), and
>>> mistakenly think they are drawing from some sort of Biblical wisdom.
>>>
>>> And by the way, I think atheism is undergoing a 'reformation' just as
>>> Christianity had to go through one. I think there was a 'dark period'
>>> for
>>> atheism just as there was for Christianity.
>>>
>>> And do you recognize how Christians (in CUFI) are causing trouble in the
>>> Middle East by siding with Israel as God's chosen people and Israel
>>> being
>>> their Holy Land?
>>>
>>> More info on Christian suffering at the hands of the Israeli's:
>>> http://ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=14109
>>>
>>> Pastor Hagee seems to think it is ok to push out or kill the
>>> Palestinians
>>> because they have no right to the Holy Land. It is a sort of
>>> Christian-supported ethnic cleansing.
>>>
>>> ...Bernie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 9:24 AM
>>> To: Dehler, Bernie; ASA
>>> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA
>>> snark
>>>
>>> Wrong as usual. All Christians believe that the revelation to which
>>> they
>>> believe the Bible witnesses is a fundamental source for ethics. Other
>>> sources (natural law &c) may of course be appealed to. The fact that
>>> they
>>> differ about the ethical implications to be drawn from this fundamental
>>> source doesn't change the fact that they believe there to be such a
>>> source.
>>> Thus the situation is quite different from that of atheists like Dawkins
>>> et
>>> al. (Note that in my earlier post I said "many atheists," not "all
>>> atheists.")
>>>
>>> Shalom
>>> George
>>> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Dehler, Bernie"
>>> <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>>
>>> To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>>
>>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 11:53 AM
>>> Subject: RE: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA
>>> snark
>>>
>>>
>>>> George said:
>>>> "I've tried to bear in mind. & one weakness of the position of many
>>>> atheists is that they have no clear basis for their ethics."
>>>>
>>>> Neither do Christians.
>>>>
>>>> Take any controversial subject and there are different opinions with
>>>> Christians. Of course, those who disagree are the "wrong" Christians
>>>> or
>>>> don't interpret the Bible correctly.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes Christians are the enemy to peace, such in Israel where they
>>>> are
>>>> one-sided pro-Israel because Israel is God's chosen people. Morals and
>>>> ethics go out the window on that one with Pastor John Hagee's CUFI (and
>>>> they say they have a clear Biblical basis for this). The Israeli's can
>>>> do
>>>> no wrong because they are God's people and that is their land, they
>>>> say.
>>>> There is no sense of doing what's right or fair from an equality
>>>> standpoint. Of course, some Christians rightly rebuke Hagee and CUFI.
>>>> But CUFI makes a lot of noise, and I don't think there is a counter
>>>> Christian group standing up and shouting for real justice. In this
>>>> way,
>>>> the Christians are creating havoc in the world, because so much
>>>> terrorisms
>>>> etc., stems from the Israeli issue. Even Christians suffer in Israel,
>>>> something pro-Israel Christians seem to be indifferent or blind to.
>>>>
>>>> ...Bernie
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>
>>>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>>>> Behalf Of Ted Davis
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 7:39 AM
>>>> To: ASA; Dave Wallace;
>>>> gmurphy10@neo.rr.com<mailto:gmurphy10@neo.rr.com>;
>>>> Gregory Arago
>>>> Cc: David Opderbeck
>>>> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA
>>>> snark
>>>>
>>>> I echo George' point, Gregory. I don't think you are an ASA member.
>>>> If
>>>> you were (say) a member for a few years (or more), you would realize
>>>> that
>>>> the ASA has for decades been about a much broader range of issues
>>>> related
>>>> to science and religion than you seem to be aware of. Also, a broader
>>>> range of disciplines and perspectives than is often reflected on this
>>>> list. You ought to consider becoming a member, Gregory. A lot of good
>>>> things have been published in our journal and discussed at our
>>>> meetings.
>>>>
>>>> Ted
>>>>
>>>>>>> <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com<mailto:gmurphy10@neo.rr.com>> 10/19/2009 10:29
>>>>>>> AM >>>
>>>> Bob Russell pointed out some years ago that the area usuaully referred
>>>> to
>>>> as "science and religion" is more accurately
>>>> "science-religion-technology-ethics," a point I've tried to bear in
>>>> mind.
>>>> & one weakness of the position of many atheists is that they have no
>>>> clear
>>>> basis for their ethics. Of course that doesn't mean that they can't be
>>>> nice people but their worldview provides no reason why they should be
>>>> nice.
>>>>
>>>> Shalom,
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>> ---- Gregory Arago
>>>> <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca<mailto:gregoryarago@yahoo.ca>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the link!
>>>>>
>>>>> I liked these lines:
>>>>>
>>>>> "while we talk about the clash between God and science, in practice it
>>>>> often comes down to disagreements about man and morals. The boundaries
>>>>> are not always neat." - William McGurn
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it is time that the 'narrow' (as Ted Davis has just said to me)
>>>>> discussion of 'science and religion' opened itself up a bit to involve
>>>>> areas of importance that it has not yet sufficiently considered?
>>>>>
>>>>> - G.A.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Dave Wallace
>>>>> <wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com<mailto:wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com>>
>>>>> To: ASA <asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>>
>>>>> Cc: David Opderbeck
>>>>> <dopderbeck@gmail.com<mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com>>
>>>>> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 4:04:07 PM
>>>>> Subject: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> God vs. Science Isn't the Issue
>>>>>
>>>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704429304574467320574576460.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave W
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to
>>>>> majordomo@calvin.edu<mailto:majordomo@calvin.edu> with
>>>>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/gift/
>>>>
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>
>
> --
> Burgy
>
> www.burgy.50megs.com
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

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Received on Tue Oct 20 14:07:19 2009