Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark

After the last two posts, I'm wondering if I'm not showing mild signs of dementia myself...

Murray Hogg wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> And this was precisely Merv's point;
>
> Bernie wants to argue that Christians have no moral basis, AND that they
> are hypocrites for not following it.
>
> But I guess this is understandable given Bernie's confusion on the
> entire question at hand.
>
> He no responded to George's remark that "many atheists have no clear
> basis for their ethics" with "neither do Christians".
>
> But no sooner has he acknowledged that "neither" many atheists nor
> Christians (Who? Bernie? Sweeping generalization? Never...) have no
> clear basis for ethics then he jumps up with the claim that we can
> together establish an ethical understanding on the basis of "decency and
> reason".
>
> So what is it? "We" do, or we don't have a basis? The basis is, or it
> isn't, "decency and reason"?
>
> You work it out, mate - I'm trying to get some obstreperous 19th century
> German nihilist away from my computer. Logical consistency (there's that
> concept again!) suggests that he at least can't make any moral complaint
> about my choice of method.
>
> Scene cuts to Murray's computer where a frazzled German philosopher sits
> furiously typing away.
>
> Murray approaches with something hidden behind his back;
>
> Murray: "Now, come here Friedrich, and see the nice base-ball bat..."
>
> Nietszche: "But you can't...!"
>
> Murray: "Can't"? What do you mean "can't"? I am the Übermensch...
>
> Scene closes with the sound of baseball bat striking Friedrich square on
> the noggin...
>
> Blessings,
> Murray
>
> Bill Powers wrote:
>> Bernie:
>>
>> It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.
>>
>> You say, as I understand it, that
>>
>> 1) Some Christians, believing Israel is God's Chosen People, give that
>> a higher priority than some moral evaluation on some particular behavior.
>>
>> 2) That they aren't making their judgments on the basis of "equality."
>>
>> I assume by the last that you are saying that their judgments are not
>> fair in some sense, but they are applying their judgments according to
>> whom is doing something.
>>
>> Let's assume that (1) and (2) are true. Do they imply that they have
>> no "basis" for their morality, as you claim?
>>
>> It seems to me that you postulate a basis in (1). You object that
>> this is immoral on some other basis, one I presume you hold to. It is
>> not clear on what "basis" you evaluate the "basis" given in (1).
>>
>> Isn't this part of the problem?
>>
>> bill
>>
>> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>
>>> George said:
>>> "I've tried to bear in mind. & one weakness of the position of many
>>> atheists is that they have no clear basis for their ethics."
>>>
>>> Neither do Christians.
>>>
>>> Take any controversial subject and there are different opinions with
>>> Christians. Of course, those who disagree are the "wrong" Christians
>>> or don't interpret the Bible correctly.
>>>
>>> Sometimes Christians are the enemy to peace, such in Israel where
>>> they are one-sided pro-Israel because Israel is God's chosen people.
>>> Morals and ethics go out the window on that one with Pastor John
>>> Hagee's CUFI (and they say they have a clear Biblical basis for
>>> this). The Israeli's can do no wrong because they are God's people
>>> and that is their land, they say. There is no sense of doing what's
>>> right or fair from an equality standpoint. Of course, some
>>> Christians rightly rebuke Hagee and CUFI. But CUFI makes a lot of
>>> noise, and I don't think there is a counter Christian group standing
>>> up and shouting for real justice. In this way, the Christians are
>>> creating havoc in the world, because so much terrorisms etc., stems
>>> from the Israeli issue. Even Christians suffer in Israel, something
>>> pro-Israel Christians seem to be indifferent or blind to.
>>>
>>> ...Bernie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
>>> On Behalf Of Ted Davis
>>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 7:39 AM
>>> To: ASA; Dave Wallace; gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; Gregory Arago
>>> Cc: David Opderbeck
>>> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA
>>> snark
>>>
>>> I echo George' point, Gregory. I don't think you are an ASA member.
>>> If you were (say) a member for a few years (or more), you would
>>> realize that the ASA has for decades been about a much broader range
>>> of issues related to science and religion than you seem to be aware
>>> of. Also, a broader range of disciplines and perspectives than is
>>> often reflected on this list. You ought to consider becoming a
>>> member, Gregory. A lot of good things have been published in our
>>> journal and discussed at our meetings.
>>>
>>> Ted
>>>
>>>>>> <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com> 10/19/2009 10:29 AM >>>
>>> Bob Russell pointed out some years ago that the area usuaully
>>> referred to as "science and religion" is more accurately
>>> "science-religion-technology-ethics," a point I've tried to bear in
>>> mind. & one weakness of the position of many atheists is that they
>>> have no clear basis for their ethics. Of course that doesn't mean
>>> that they can't be nice people but their worldview provides no reason
>>> why they should be nice.
>>>
>>> Shalom,
>>> George
>>>
>>> ---- Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the link!
>>>>
>>>> I liked these lines:
>>>>
>>>> "while we talk about the clash between God and science, in practice
>>>> it often comes down to disagreements about man and morals. The
>>>> boundaries are not always neat." - William McGurn
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it is time that the 'narrow' (as Ted Davis has just said to
>>>> me) discussion of 'science and religion' opened itself up a bit to
>>>> involve areas of importance that it has not yet sufficiently
>>>> considered?
>>>>
>>>> - G.A.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Dave Wallace <wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com>
>>>> To: ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
>>>> Cc: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 4:04:07 PM
>>>> Subject: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> God vs. Science Isn't the Issue
>>>>
>>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704429304574467320574576460.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dave W
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________________________
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>>>>
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Received on Mon Oct 19 19:12:24 2009