RE: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark

Bernie:

It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.

You say, as I understand it, that

1) Some Christians, believing Israel is God's Chosen People, give that a
higher priority than some moral evaluation on some particular behavior.

2) That they aren't making their judgments on the basis of "equality."

I assume by the last that you are saying that their judgments are not
fair in some sense, but they are applying their judgments according to
whom is doing something.

Let's assume that (1) and (2) are true. Do they imply that they have no
"basis" for their morality, as you claim?

It seems to me that you postulate a basis in (1). You object that this
is immoral on some other basis, one I presume you hold to. It is not
clear on what "basis" you evaluate the "basis" given in (1).

Isn't this part of the problem?

bill

On Mon, 19
Oct 2009, Dehler, Bernie wrote:

> George said:
> "I've tried to bear in mind. & one weakness of the position of many atheists is that they have no clear basis for their ethics."
>
> Neither do Christians.
>
> Take any controversial subject and there are different opinions with Christians. Of course, those who disagree are the "wrong" Christians or don't interpret the Bible correctly.
>
> Sometimes Christians are the enemy to peace, such in Israel where they are one-sided pro-Israel because Israel is God's chosen people. Morals and ethics go out the window on that one with Pastor John Hagee's CUFI (and they say they have a clear Biblical basis for this). The Israeli's can do no wrong because they are God's people and that is their land, they say. There is no sense of doing what's right or fair from an equality standpoint. Of course, some Christians rightly rebuke Hagee and CUFI. But CUFI makes a lot of noise, and I don't think there is a counter Christian group standing up and shouting for real justice. In this way, the Christians are creating havoc in the world, because so much terrorisms etc., stems from the Israeli issue. Even Christians suffer in Israel, something pro-Israel Christians seem to be indifferent or blind to.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Ted Davis
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 7:39 AM
> To: ASA; Dave Wallace; gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; Gregory Arago
> Cc: David Opderbeck
> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>
> I echo George' point, Gregory. I don't think you are an ASA member. If you were (say) a member for a few years (or more), you would realize that the ASA has for decades been about a much broader range of issues related to science and religion than you seem to be aware of. Also, a broader range of disciplines and perspectives than is often reflected on this list. You ought to consider becoming a member, Gregory. A lot of good things have been published in our journal and discussed at our meetings.
>
> Ted
>
>>>> <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com> 10/19/2009 10:29 AM >>>
> Bob Russell pointed out some years ago that the area usuaully referred to as "science and religion" is more accurately "science-religion-technology-ethics," a point I've tried to bear in mind. & one weakness of the position of many atheists is that they have no clear basis for their ethics. Of course that doesn't mean that they can't be nice people but their worldview provides no reason why they should be nice.
>
> Shalom,
> George
>
> ---- Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> Thanks for the link!
>>
>> I liked these lines:
>>
>> "while we talk about the clash between God and science, in practice it often comes down to disagreements about man and morals. The boundaries are not always neat." - William McGurn
>>
>> Maybe it is time that the 'narrow' (as Ted Davis has just said to me) discussion of 'science and religion' opened itself up a bit to involve areas of importance that it has not yet sufficiently considered?
>>
>> - G.A.
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Dave Wallace <wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com>
>> To: ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Cc: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 4:04:07 PM
>> Subject: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>
>>
>> God vs. Science Isn't the Issue
>>
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704429304574467320574576460.html
>>
>> Dave W
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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Received on Mon Oct 19 18:43:53 2009