Re: [asa] morals/ethics

From: Jim Armstrong <jarmstro99@q.com>
Date: Mon Oct 19 2009 - 15:52:38 EDT

This is sort of parenthetical, but I think the issue mentioned in your (Bernie's) next to last sentence looms very large for "the church", and I think that there are cognitive, logical and scientific things in this realm that need to be placed on the table in honest and thoughtful straight talk, even with the discomfort that may accompany it. One only has to take a look at the proportion of headlines on more conservative news aggregation sites that deal directly or indirectly with this subject to get some sense of its import. There is also a very well defined gap between the traditional posture of mainstream and the "what's the big deal?" attitude of the younger generations, documented for example in the observations offered from some of the Barna surveys. I've experienced blocked messages, as apparently have you, when attempting to broach this subject. I do not in any way intend to trivialize the difficulty of maintaining a temperate discussion on this topic, so suffused with emotion and tradition. But it very much appears to me to be a very large and very consequential elephant in the living room, and that conversation needs to be happening somewhere -- like this -- even if there is great disparity in the understandings of the participants, and even though the management task in maintaining a measure of decorum is daunting.

This is not going away, even if it has to "age out" in most churches. In the meantime, most cannot imagine the hurt inflicted at the hands of the Christian community, and upon children of God. And it is very easy to underestimate the alienation of young folks that is traceable in significant part to this particular attitude spoken or unspoken in still so many churches.

At least, that's the way it seemeth to me.

Regards

JimA [Friend of ASA]

Dehler, Bernie wrote:

Merv said:
"Here is my challenge to YOU, Bernie:  Assuming that you equally disapprove of their atheistic misbehavior, what do you go and challenge them with?  What basis do you give them for saying:  "what you are doing is wrong"?  "

I think this can only be discussed given a specific example, so please provide one.

Most likely, I bet a thoughtful Christian and atheist can agree on many things because of decency and logic.

I think the gay issue won't work because last time it was tried the discussion filters deleted/blocked messages, etc.

So what is the most important pressing moral issue that Christians and atheists will have differing opinions on?

...Bernie


-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of mrb22667@kansas.net
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 10:40 AM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark

Quoting "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>:

  

George said:
"I've tried to bear in mind.  & one weakness of the position of many atheists
is that they have no clear basis for their ethics."

Bernie replies:   "Neither do Christians."

    

So, Bernie, here's a challenge.  When Christians do things like the crusades,
inquisitions, shooting abortion doctors, blindly being "pro-Israel" on every
political issue no matter what the consequences to anyone ...  the list could go
on; you feel free to challenge their actions as being wrong.  On what basis do
you decide that?  You are free to respond that Christians are failing to live up
to their own calling --their own religious claims --(hypocrites, in other
words).  Now what if a group of atheists (as outspoken atheists --thinking of
the Soviet era e.g.) engage in their bit of mischief.  Here is my challenge to
YOU, Bernie:  Assuming that you equally disapprove of their atheistic
misbehavior, what do you go and challenge them with?  What basis do you give
them for saying:  "what you are doing is wrong"?  

Christians, contrary to what you say, have that very clear basis even if they
fail to follow it --even if you choose not to believe in it --until it suits
your purpose as a tool for selectively thinking Christians are hypocrites.

--Merv

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.


To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.


  

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message. Received on Mon Oct 19 15:53:17 2009