RE: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark

I think one of the strong points for Francis Collins is that he is very interested in ethics in medicine. However, I could see (imagine) him leading a panel discussion on ethics on a certain issue with fellow scientists, and never bringing up God or the Bible. If there is no reference to God or the Bible, how can it be important? I think Christians underestimate how much they use reason alone (and humanistic ideas), and mistakenly think they are drawing from some sort of Biblical wisdom.

And by the way, I think atheism is undergoing a 'reformation' just as Christianity had to go through one. I think there was a 'dark period' for atheism just as there was for Christianity.

And do you recognize how Christians (in CUFI) are causing trouble in the Middle East by siding with Israel as God's chosen people and Israel being their Holy Land?

More info on Christian suffering at the hands of the Israeli's:
http://ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=14109

Pastor Hagee seems to think it is ok to push out or kill the Palestinians because they have no right to the Holy Land. It is a sort of Christian-supported ethnic cleansing.

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 9:24 AM
To: Dehler, Bernie; ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark

Wrong as usual. All Christians believe that the revelation to which they
believe the Bible witnesses is a fundamental source for ethics. Other
sources (natural law &c) may of course be appealed to. The fact that they
differ about the ethical implications to be drawn from this fundamental
source doesn't change the fact that they believe there to be such a source.
Thus the situation is quite different from that of atheists like Dawkins et
al. (Note that in my earlier post I said "many atheists," not "all
atheists.")

Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 11:53 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark

> George said:
> "I've tried to bear in mind. & one weakness of the position of many
> atheists is that they have no clear basis for their ethics."
>
> Neither do Christians.
>
> Take any controversial subject and there are different opinions with
> Christians. Of course, those who disagree are the "wrong" Christians or
> don't interpret the Bible correctly.
>
> Sometimes Christians are the enemy to peace, such in Israel where they are
> one-sided pro-Israel because Israel is God's chosen people. Morals and
> ethics go out the window on that one with Pastor John Hagee's CUFI (and
> they say they have a clear Biblical basis for this). The Israeli's can do
> no wrong because they are God's people and that is their land, they say.
> There is no sense of doing what's right or fair from an equality
> standpoint. Of course, some Christians rightly rebuke Hagee and CUFI.
> But CUFI makes a lot of noise, and I don't think there is a counter
> Christian group standing up and shouting for real justice. In this way,
> the Christians are creating havoc in the world, because so much terrorisms
> etc., stems from the Israeli issue. Even Christians suffer in Israel,
> something pro-Israel Christians seem to be indifferent or blind to.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Ted Davis
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 7:39 AM
> To: ASA; Dave Wallace; gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; Gregory Arago
> Cc: David Opderbeck
> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>
> I echo George' point, Gregory. I don't think you are an ASA member. If
> you were (say) a member for a few years (or more), you would realize that
> the ASA has for decades been about a much broader range of issues related
> to science and religion than you seem to be aware of. Also, a broader
> range of disciplines and perspectives than is often reflected on this
> list. You ought to consider becoming a member, Gregory. A lot of good
> things have been published in our journal and discussed at our meetings.
>
> Ted
>
>>>> <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com> 10/19/2009 10:29 AM >>>
> Bob Russell pointed out some years ago that the area usuaully referred to
> as "science and religion" is more accurately
> "science-religion-technology-ethics," a point I've tried to bear in mind.
> & one weakness of the position of many atheists is that they have no clear
> basis for their ethics. Of course that doesn't mean that they can't be
> nice people but their worldview provides no reason why they should be
> nice.
>
> Shalom,
> George
>
> ---- Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> Thanks for the link!
>>
>> I liked these lines:
>>
>> "while we talk about the clash between God and science, in practice it
>> often comes down to disagreements about man and morals. The boundaries
>> are not always neat." - William McGurn
>>
>> Maybe it is time that the 'narrow' (as Ted Davis has just said to me)
>> discussion of 'science and religion' opened itself up a bit to involve
>> areas of importance that it has not yet sufficiently considered?
>>
>> - G.A.
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Dave Wallace <wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com>
>> To: ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Cc: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 4:04:07 PM
>> Subject: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>
>>
>> God vs. Science Isn't the Issue
>>
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704429304574467320574576460.html
>>
>> Dave W
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>>
>>
>>
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Received on Mon Oct 19 12:46:13 2009