RE: [asa] (ancient theodicy, 'ancient theology') Deism, Apologetics, and Neglected Arguments

David Clounch said:
"Imagine if materialism became the dominant world view: if a tsunami kills a billion people, why should anyone send aid? Its just another spontaneous reaction. Like rust. Questions of purpose are irrelevant. Materialists just really wouldn't care (if they are following their beliefs to their logical conclusion). "

That is over simplistic. You say "why should anyone send aid?" then just supply one answer, instead of many. It is like an anti-Christian saying that Christians believe that Christ is going to return very soon, like tomorrow, so why bother taking care of the environment? It is like re-arranging deck chairs on the sinking Titanic. However, other Christians also have other viewpoints.

There are those who don't believe in God but still get a purpose out of this transient life. Agreed- the end result is still nothingness, going to the same place we came from, nothing, but there's still meaning in living life in the vapor. The idea of eternal life is much better if true- but it is a delusion if not true- so it isn't a matter of which we WANT but which is TRUE. As a truth-seeker, I value truth over my desire for what I want to be true.

...Bernie

________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of David Clounch
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:08 AM
To: Dave Wallace
Cc: Murray Hogg; ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] (ancient theodicy, 'ancient theology') Deism, Apologetics, and Neglected Arguments

Fork #2

2) On the materialist position itself: Bernie has been challenging traditional Christian views on the problem of pain, implying they are inadequate and this will cause believers to reject their faith. And I perceive what Bernie to be asserting is that from the view of a casual observer it sure looks like random purposeless death is what is going on rather than a grand overall purposeful plan. But...lets assume materialism is correct. If one asks the same questions of materialism that Bernie asked of Christianity, what do we get?
 What conclusion can anyone reach other than:

"pain and suffering then is purposeless because individual human lives and even the entire human race is purposeless."

Imagine if materialism became the dominant world view: if a tsunami kills a billion people, why should anyone send aid? Its just another spontaneous reaction. Like rust. Questions of purpose are irrelevant. Materialists just really wouldn't care (if they are following their beliefs to their logical conclusion). Contrast this with the Christian view of humans that each human is made in the image of God and is something God cares deeply about.
That is the reason to help alleviate people's suffering. They have ultimate worth.

I think almost everybody on earth thinks human have worth and more meaning that rocks on the beach.

A materialist could always say "well I care. I'll send aid. Its an existential thing." But he would be abandoning the logical conclusion of his own world view when he says that.

So it seems to me the best way to kill evolution is to associate evolution with materialism.
Is this really what Bernie is trying to do?

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Dave Wallace <wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com<mailto:wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com>> wrote:
Murray Hogg wrote:

But as for the alternate responses, I personally think it's a very hard question: why WOULD God choose to create through evolution when the process is intrinsically competitive and contrary to the command to love one's neighbour?
Sometimes I wonder if, given all the constraints, God's creating through evolution was the only way he could get the kind of people he ultimately wanted. The kind of constraints I am thinking of are things like moral imperatives. As I see it God does not want determinism to rule the people he looks for although our freedom is quite limited.

Again, "I don't know" is, to me, an appropriate response and one I can live with.
I think we often have to live with I don't know. Too often we attempt to go beyond our limitations, not only in science but it theology, some things are simply mysteries. I do think that mankind's breaking of the law has made the situation worse, much worse and that the results of such sin go down through the generations.

Dave W

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Received on Wed Aug 26 11:27:36 2009