Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

I know professors of physics who just plain disagree with you. (not that I
agree with them of course).

So, I would say it is is reasonable to form a denominational position and
leave it at that. With the idea that disagreeing denominations are going to
tolerate other denominations.

What bothers me is the "must get rid of them" attitude. I don't know
quite what that means. Sounds a bit like "firing up the ovens". Lets hope
it doesn't mean that.
I keep thinking of those who wanted to get rid of Tyndale and his damnable
English translation of the bible. And then the king who two years later
forced every parish in England to use only that translation.

The key is to find a way to have religious liberty without diminishing the
religious liberty of others. Is anybody even trying for that? I rarely
hear anybody advocate religious liberty.

Anybody who has the right to ban Mike Behe also has the right to ban Francis
Collins. We should all tell ourselves daily, "Anybody who can get rid of Ken
Ham can also get rid of me."

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 12:53 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Rom 1:22 is one of my favorite verses as well. Granted "I don't know" is an
> appropriate response for pastors and scientists alike at certain times. It
> has been a problem though when it was applied to matters like a flat earth
> or geocentric solar system. I contend it is still inappropriate now for age
> of the earth discussions and even pseudogene evidences for common descent.
> There comes a point when the scientific evidence becomes sufficient when we
> reasonably do know certain things and we are there on these issues in my
> judgement.
>
> John
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
> To: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 9:10:34 AM
> Subject: RE: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
>
> John,
> Thanks for you comments. Jesus would never excuse ignorance. I believe his
> emphasis must have been more on avoidance of pride or haughtiness. That is
> the way I understand Matt. 18:3. I also often quote “being wise as serpents
> and innocent as doves” to my children. Of course, my favorite verse, which
> is in my facebook, is “Professing to be wise, they became fools.” Rom.
> 1:22. This is certainly addressed to the prideful.
> I do not see why a pastor cannot use the words “I do not know” when
> referring to scientific knowledge, especially in areas that there may be so
> much contention even amongst scientists. There is so little we can prove,
> Gödel taught us that, that I personally work the ends. I know science, I am
> a practicing physicist, and I know Scripture. How the two jibe together in
> the middle is the tough part and, at times, I think unfathomable to the
> human brain.
> I must say that I am not a regular churchgoer and when in church never
> heard any pastors speak about scientific matters. I suppose that if I heard
> what I consider scientific nonsense, that is, showing ignorance of basic
> scientific facts, then I would be disturbed and would go and speak to the
> pastor afterwards. As a Christian, I am not neither pastor- nor church-
> dependent. “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and
> men, the man Christ Jesus.” 1 Tim. 2:5.
>
> Moorad
> ________________________________________
> From: John Walley [john_walley@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 4:32 AM
> To: Alexanian, Moorad
> Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation
> Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
>
> I would say those words have no bearing on the subject of this discussion.
> I don't think Jesus' admonition for us to be childlike implies excusing
> ignorance. Jesus offered us lots of words. He also said to be as wise as
> serpents and innocent as doves. Further He said that the children of
> darkness are shrewder than the children of light. What sense do you make of
> those words of Jesus?
>
> As to the other side discussion, obviously God calls and uses whoever He
> can and does His best with what He has to work with. The example of the guy
> baptizing in the name of John makes this clear. However that is no excuse
> for us to be wise and shrewd as above and to value teaching and instruction.
>
> I disagree that the primary responsibilities of being a pastor such as
> sheparding souls and handling the sacrements are in conflict with an
> informed worldview. In fact handling the Truth and understanding how God's
> revelation integrates with Truth is just as much a responsibility, even
> moreso now that that forms the battle lines of out current spiritual
> warfare.
>
> Excepting the practical issues of getting the pastors trained the point is
> that they should be and they should be seeking this themselves even if they
> weren't. I do not expect pastors to be scientists but they do not have to
> be. I only have a liberal arts degree but I sensed the importance of this
> issue and sought it out and studied it until I figured it out and I expect
> the same from them, especially on such a pivotal foundational issue.
>
> John
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
> To: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>; Schwarzwald <
> schwarzwald@gmail.com>; "asa@calvin.edu" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 10:17:01 PM
> Subject: RE: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
>
> John,
> I wonder what sense do you make of Jesus’ words, "Truly I say to you,
> unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the
> kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 18:3.
> Moorad
> ________________________________
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of
> John Walley [john_walley@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 7:40 PM
> To: Schwarzwald; asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
>
> First of all I would say that all pastors should be required to be educated
> about science. They should all be conversant and fluent about all the
> science faith issues that comprise the modern day ideological battlefield
> including age of the earth and evolution. They should be familiar with all
> the facts of science on both of these issues including dating methods and
> pseudogenes and have read all the popular authors on the subject like Ross,
> Collins, Miler, Falk, McGrath etc. I think all pastors should be as educated
> on these issues as the average member of this list who is just an avid truth
> seeker and not a professional minister excepting George and Michael and
> maybe a couple of others. We have come to accept stupidity and excuses from
> our church leadership and we are just ok with that. Well I for one am not.
> If I was in charge of a denomination they would all be fired. This is one of
> the most foundational issues of the faith and not only is it the
> modern spiritual weapon t!
>
> hat the enemy is using to marginalize and criminalize Christianity, it also
> gets to the core issue of objective reality and how we know anything.
> Without a desire to have this understanding, to me Christianity is certainly
> impotent and almost meaningless. It is hard for me to accept the spiritual
> authority of any pastor who doesn't show at least an interest or a desire to
> press through to understand these issues. I can accept disagreement from
> those that are on the journey and trying to understand but not from those
> who just write it off and dismiss it out of hand, which are most from my
> experience.
>
> There once was a day when church scholars were the thought leaders for all
> of society and education and intelligence and applied Christian theology
> were synonymous. That is how it should still be today as well. Collins and
> the above are bright spots that give me hope that it may be that way again
> but first we have to get all the fundamentalist ignorant Bible thumpers out
> of the way first. The prescription is not a formula for what they should be
> saying or doing but instead an honest, humble quest for Truth with the
> willingness to repent of religious pride and tradition, status and self
> identity, ego and all the other things that keep people locked in that
> spiritual jail. Once they encounter the true God that aligns with the record
> of nature and that they worship in spirit in truth instead of the idol they
> make for themselves from their over literal and over concordist finite
> understanding of the Bible, then they will know what to say and do and
> things
> will start changing.
>
> We have had the discussion before on this list that the Reformation did a
> lot of good for the church but one of the not so good things it did was to
> create an anything goes theological free-for-all. Every church's doctrine is
> as good as any other and you can find a denomination for whatever
> combination of subjective pet beliefs and doctrines you care to cherish.
> What is now missing from prostestantism is the concept of the Magisterium
> where there really is a right and wrong that is decided by competent and
> qualified experts with a rationale that serves all. I have a feeling that
> this is where God is trying to bring the protestant church back to but I
> shudder to think of what it might take to get the church from here to there.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Schwarzwald <schwarzwald@gmail.com>
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 2:25:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
>
> If that's the case, John, then what do you think the course of action
> should be for pastors and church leaders when it comes to this question?
> What should they be saying, how should they be saying it, etc?
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 1:21 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com<mailto:
> john_walley@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> The problem with this is that if we can't do any better than three mutually
> exclusive datasets in a world where their choice will make or break their
> career, then I agree with them in their decision to leave the church.
>
> If pastors and the church can't figure this out then I don't blame anyone
> for not having any respect for them and not trusting them.
>
> They are not only not relevant but actually counterproductive by
> obfuscating what should be a cut and dried issue.
>
> I count myself among these you are lamenting and I put the onus on the
> church to be the solution.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
> On Sat Aug 8th, 2009 10:39 PM EDT James Patterson wrote:
>
> >It seems to me that this baby/bathwater problem is even more serious right
> >now because of a seemingly growing inclination among many of the young to
> >instantly turn off the voice of (respect for) anyone who self-compromises
> >their message by uttering something that immediately registers as untrue,
> is
> >accompanied by an unwelcome (to the hearer) agenda, or fails to connect
> >however tenuously with the questions floating around in the hearer's
> >recently discovered and dynamically growing internal worldview.
> >
> >
> >
> >Jim, agreed.
> >
> >
> >
> >One thing my wife has mentioned several times, with which I agree, and
> that
> >gets back to the "are they really a Christian if they leave the Church"
> >issue. Many of these young adults go and taste the world, and find it
> >distasteful. It does not sit well with what is written on their hearts.
> They
> >gain perspective, insight, learn to see that man and the Church are not
> >perfect. Some also learn in time that, despite its problems, the Church is
> >(vastly) better in an imperfect form than no Church at all.
> >
> >
> >
> >I know that's what happened with me.
> >
> >
> >
> >Despite all our debate about how God did it, we agree that God created us.
> >We really should be able to figure out a way to provide to young people
> >convincing evidence that - despite the fact that we can't agree on HOW -
> he
> >DID create us. The problem is that they (the "average" college student)
> need
> >evidence.and we have (at least) three different datasets.
> >
> >
> >
> >James Patterson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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Received on Tue Aug 11 16:27:37 2009