RE: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

John,
Thanks for you comments. Jesus would never excuse ignorance. I believe his emphasis must have been more on avoidance of pride or haughtiness. That is the way I understand Matt. 18:3. I also often quote “being wise as serpents and innocent as doves” to my children. Of course, my favorite verse, which is in my facebook, is “Professing to be wise, they became fools.” Rom. 1:22. This is certainly addressed to the prideful.
I do not see why a pastor cannot use the words “I do not know” when referring to scientific knowledge, especially in areas that there may be so much contention even amongst scientists. There is so little we can prove, Gödel taught us that, that I personally work the ends. I know science, I am a practicing physicist, and I know Scripture. How the two jibe together in the middle is the tough part and, at times, I think unfathomable to the human brain.
I must say that I am not a regular churchgoer and when in church never heard any pastors speak about scientific matters. I suppose that if I heard what I consider scientific nonsense, that is, showing ignorance of basic scientific facts, then I would be disturbed and would go and speak to the pastor afterwards. As a Christian, I am not neither pastor- nor church- dependent. “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” 1 Tim. 2:5.

Moorad
________________________________________
From: John Walley [john_walley@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 4:32 AM
To: Alexanian, Moorad
Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation
Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

I would say those words have no bearing on the subject of this discussion. I don't think Jesus' admonition for us to be childlike implies excusing ignorance. Jesus offered us lots of words. He also said to be as wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Further He said that the children of darkness are shrewder than the children of light. What sense do you make of those words of Jesus?

As to the other side discussion, obviously God calls and uses whoever He can and does His best with what He has to work with. The example of the guy baptizing in the name of John makes this clear. However that is no excuse for us to be wise and shrewd as above and to value teaching and instruction.

I disagree that the primary responsibilities of being a pastor such as sheparding souls and handling the sacrements are in conflict with an informed worldview. In fact handling the Truth and understanding how God's revelation integrates with Truth is just as much a responsibility, even moreso now that that forms the battle lines of out current spiritual warfare.

Excepting the practical issues of getting the pastors trained the point is that they should be and they should be seeking this themselves even if they weren't. I do not expect pastors to be scientists but they do not have to be. I only have a liberal arts degree but I sensed the importance of this issue and sought it out and studied it until I figured it out and I expect the same from them, especially on such a pivotal foundational issue.

John

----- Original Message ----
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
To: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>; Schwarzwald <schwarzwald@gmail.com>; "asa@calvin.edu" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 10:17:01 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

John,
I wonder what sense do you make of Jesus’ words, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 18:3.
Moorad
________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of John Walley [john_walley@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 7:40 PM
To: Schwarzwald; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

First of all I would say that all pastors should be required to be educated about science. They should all be conversant and fluent about all the science faith issues that comprise the modern day ideological battlefield including age of the earth and evolution. They should be familiar with all the facts of science on both of these issues including dating methods and pseudogenes and have read all the popular authors on the subject like Ross, Collins, Miler, Falk, McGrath etc. I think all pastors should be as educated on these issues as the average member of this list who is just an avid truth seeker and not a professional minister excepting George and Michael and maybe a couple of others. We have come to accept stupidity and excuses from our church leadership and we are just ok with that. Well I for one am not. If I was in charge of a denomination they would all be fired. This is one of the most foundational issues of the faith and not only is it the
 modern spiritual weapon t!

hat the enemy is using to marginalize and criminalize Christianity, it also gets to the core issue of objective reality and how we know anything. Without a desire to have this understanding, to me Christianity is certainly impotent and almost meaningless. It is hard for me to accept the spiritual authority of any pastor who doesn't show at least an interest or a desire to press through to understand these issues. I can accept disagreement from those that are on the journey and trying to understand but not from those who just write it off and dismiss it out of hand, which are most from my experience.

There once was a day when church scholars were the thought leaders for all of society and education and intelligence and applied Christian theology were synonymous. That is how it should still be today as well. Collins and the above are bright spots that give me hope that it may be that way again but first we have to get all the fundamentalist ignorant Bible thumpers out of the way first. The prescription is not a formula for what they should be saying or doing but instead an honest, humble quest for Truth with the willingness to repent of religious pride and tradition, status and self identity, ego and all the other things that keep people locked in that spiritual jail. Once they encounter the true God that aligns with the record of nature and that they worship in spirit in truth instead of the idol they make for themselves from their over literal and over concordist finite understanding of the Bible, then they will know what to say and do and things
 will start changing.

We have had the discussion before on this list that the Reformation did a lot of good for the church but one of the not so good things it did was to create an anything goes theological free-for-all. Every church's doctrine is as good as any other and you can find a denomination for whatever combination of subjective pet beliefs and doctrines you care to cherish. What is now missing from prostestantism is the concept of the Magisterium where there really is a right and wrong that is decided by competent and qualified experts with a rationale that serves all. I have a feeling that this is where God is trying to bring the protestant church back to but I shudder to think of what it might take to get the church from here to there.

Thanks

John

________________________________
From: Schwarzwald <schwarzwald@gmail.com>
To: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 2:25:54 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

If that's the case, John, then what do you think the course of action should be for pastors and church leaders when it comes to this question? What should they be saying, how should they be saying it, etc?

On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 1:21 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com<mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>> wrote:
The problem with this is that if we can't do any better than three mutually exclusive datasets in a world where their choice will make or break their career, then I agree with them in their decision to leave the church.

If pastors and the church can't figure this out then I don't blame anyone for not having any respect for them and not trusting them.

They are not only not relevant but actually counterproductive by obfuscating what should be a cut and dried issue.

I count myself among these you are lamenting and I put the onus on the church to be the solution.

Thanks

John

On Sat Aug 8th, 2009 10:39 PM EDT James Patterson wrote:

>It seems to me that this baby/bathwater problem is even more serious right
>now because of a seemingly growing inclination among many of the young to
>instantly turn off the voice of (respect for) anyone who self-compromises
>their message by uttering something that immediately registers as untrue, is
>accompanied by an unwelcome (to the hearer) agenda, or fails to connect
>however tenuously with the questions floating around in the hearer's
>recently discovered and dynamically growing internal worldview.
>
>
>
>Jim, agreed.
>
>
>
>One thing my wife has mentioned several times, with which I agree, and that
>gets back to the "are they really a Christian if they leave the Church"
>issue. Many of these young adults go and taste the world, and find it
>distasteful. It does not sit well with what is written on their hearts. They
>gain perspective, insight, learn to see that man and the Church are not
>perfect. Some also learn in time that, despite its problems, the Church is
>(vastly) better in an imperfect form than no Church at all.
>
>
>
>I know that's what happened with me.
>
>
>
>Despite all our debate about how God did it, we agree that God created us.
>We really should be able to figure out a way to provide to young people
>convincing evidence that - despite the fact that we can't agree on HOW - he
>DID create us. The problem is that they (the "average" college student) need
>evidence.and we have (at least) three different datasets.
>
>
>
>James Patterson
>
>
>
>
>

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Received on Mon Aug 10 09:12:52 2009