RE: [asa] George & heliocentricity (center of the universe)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:50 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: RE: [asa] George & heliocentricity (center of the universe)
>
>
> Skrogh said:
> " I would say, no. The earth is at the center of the universe,
> but so is every other point."
>
> I have heard the balloon analogy before, and I would say I
> disagree with you when you say 'everything' is at the center. I
> would rather say nothing is at the center as there is no center
> (there is no center on the surface of a ball).

From what I wrote, I don't see why you would necessarily disagree on that
point. Sandage is not referring to definition 1. All those definitions
refer to a center in normal 3-dimensional space. Sandage is saying that from
every point, the point will appear to be at the center, because, everything
WAS at the center at the beginning, at the first moment of expansion. Not
every point on a stage is at the center, so it is not definition 1. Put
another way, every point was everywhere. existing at the same point, except
at that time, there was no "where." The balloon analogy works very well as
a 2 dimensional existence, trying to imagine a third when there is none
available to the surface of a balloon (there is no where). It is not a
balloon in 3 dimensional space, must only think in 2. That is why it works
so well. However, trying to find a true center in the universe is like
trying to find a true center of the balloon (on the inside, which in this
analogy, is not part of the balloon) when only the surface of the balloon is
available for observation in a 2-D existence. It is not an expansion
occurring in space, space, itself is expanding, dragging the galaxies with
it. If the expansion occurred in an already existing space, then a "center"
or point of origin could be measured.

My comment was directed at your question:

> Question:
> Suppose someone has this hypothesis:
>
> The Earth is the center of the universe.
>
> Do you think this can be scientifically disproven?
>
> I would appreciate it if your answer began with a 'yes' or 'no.'

I said "no" to whether it can be scientifically disproven. Because, from the
Earth, it truly does appear to be at the "Center" of the universe. However,
from any other point (P') in the universe, that point (P') appears to be at
the center, as well. In the question you posed above, it was the Earth in
reference to only the rest of the universe, not just the Earth/Sun relation.
If you meant strictly earth/sun....well...(channeling Emily Litella), "never
mind."

> My appeal goes to the definition of "center."
>
> But there is more than one definition for 'center' so I suppose
> the confusion goes there (def. 1 and 3 below; I was thinking more
> of 3, Sandage is referring to 1). From:
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/center
>
> cen*ter
> 1. A point or place that is equally distant from the sides or
> outer boundaries of something; the middle: the center of a stage.
> 2.
> a. A point equidistant from the vertices of a regular polygon.
> b. A point equidistant from all points on the circumference of a
> circle or on the surface of a sphere.
> 3. A point around which something rotates or revolves: The sun is
> the center of our solar system.
>
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of skrogh
> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 9:25 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: RE: [asa] George & heliocentricity
>
>
>
> I would say, no. The earth is at the center of the universe, but
> so is every
> other point. Allan Sandage put it this way in an explanation of the Big
> Bang.
>
> "It is not as if the universe and the galaxies are expanding into a space
> that is already there, space itself is expanding, carrying the
> galaxies with
> it. The expansion creates the space. One can conceptualize this as the
> two-dimensional analog, as the surface of a balloon. Mark a bunch
> of dots on
> the balloon and blow it up and then imagine yourself on any of
> the dots. You
> seem to be in the center, and all of the dots are moving away
> from you. Now,
> take the air out of the balloon and look what dots do. All the dots come
> toward every other dot. If you could take all the air out of a perfect
> balloon, the surface itself would go to zero. All the dots would
> be back at
> one place at on time, every place is the center of the expansion. When I
> talk about this, the question that always comes up is, 'Well, can you find
> the center of the expansion?' Every place is the center of the expansion,
> there is no one center to the beginning, every thing was back at one place
> and every place and every time was identical, in the beginning."
>
>
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Received on Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:32:17 -0500