Re: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions

Yeh, George. That is consistent with the perspective of a Jewish teacher
friend of mine.
JimA

George Murphy wrote:
> I don't want to get deeply into a discussion of angels right now (for
> want of time, not because the topic is of no interest). But folks
> discussing it should be aware that the figure of "the angel of the
> LORD" in the OT is often, if not always, a way of speaking about God.
> OT scholars may refer to it as an "anti-anthropomorphism," a device to
> avoid having to refer directly to God in human terms. Sometimes the
> equivalence is pretty obvious. In.Ex.3:2 "the angel of the LORD"
> appears to Moses, but when Moses goes to see, "the LORD saw that he
> had turned aside (v.4).
>
> I want to be clear that this figure of the angel of the LORD is a
> literary device, a way of speaking of a manifestation of the God of
> Israel. It does not refer to a separate divine person, the "unfleshed
> Logos." There are at best hints of the latter idea in the OT in,
> e.g., the personification of Wisdom.
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dehler, Bernie"
> <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:38 AM
> Subject: RE: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions
>
>
>> There is a problem with saying Jesus had pre-incarnate manifestations
>> as an Angel because Christ is supposed to be almighty God, not an
>> angel (which is a created being). They are two different orders of
>> being. Jesus had a human and God nature- are we to throw in a third
>> angelic nature also?
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Merv Bitikofer [mailto:mrb22667@kansas.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 5:06 AM
>> To: philtill@aol.com; asa; Dehler, Bernie
>> Subject: Re: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions
>>
>> There is Daniel 10:13 where Michael is waylaid 21 days. Apparently
>> angels can get "tied up" in this way too, so to speak. So God's
>> messengers sometimes suffer delays just as human messengers. Try to
>> incorporate that into your theology!
>>
>> --Merv
>>
>> philtill@aol.com wrote:
>>> Another example of an angel with a sword (very similar to Numbers 22)
>>> is in the plague at the time of David. David was given a view of the
>>> angel doling out the plague, standing over Jerusalem holding a sword.
>>> In that case, we know that the result of this "sword" was an illness
>>> spread throughout a city, not a cut in an individual's flesh.
>>> Apparently the vision of a sword was an anthropomorphism so that David
>>> could understand the peril. I'd assume that most of what we read
>>> about angels is anthropomorphism so we can understand things that we
>>> otherwise couldn't. That's not to say it isn't real. I'd assume the
>>> reality is more than the anthropomorphism can communicate.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gordon brown <Gordon.Brown@Colorado.EDU>
>>> To: asa@calvin.edu
>>> Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 5:21 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions (was:
>>> ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe))
>>>
>>> For more on angels and swords see Numbers 22 beginning at verse 22. I
>>> am not prepared to present any conclusions from this.
>>>
>>> Gordon Brown (ASA member)
>>>
>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, philtill@aol.com <mailto:philtill@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Angels can be "bound", so I have in my head an image more like
>>> wrestling than sword-fighting.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dehler, Bernie
>>> <bernie.dehler@intel.com
>>> <mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>>
>>> > Cc: ASA <asa@calvin.edu <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>>
>>> > Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 3:47 pm
>>> > Subject: RE: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions (was:
>>> ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe))
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>> > I was telling my kid (2nd grader) the other day about a war in
>>> heaven with good
>>> > vs. bad angels. Good angels kicked-out the bad ones. The bad ones,
>>> led by
>>> > Satan, wanted to take over.
>>> >
>>> > He had a good question I never thought about- can angels die?
>>> >
>>> > Theology says no- that's why hell was made for them. Forever
>>> tormented.
>>> >
>>> > But here we have a case of war with no death? What are they doing-
>>> just shoving
>>> > each other around? Do they have weapons, but these weapons can't
>>> kill another?
>>> > What's a war without death? Are they cutting off limbs? If Angels
>>> don't have
>>> > limbs (because they are spiritual and not material), are they just
>>> being hurt in
>>> > some way, but not completely dying?
>>> >
>>> > What does this have to do with ASA? It is a matter of trying to
>>> apply logic to
>>> > faith... does the Christian faith make sense about angel warfare and
>>> the fall of
>>> > Satan, using modern day logic?
>>> >
>>> > He asks a lot of interesting questions that somehow adults gloss
>>> over (including
>>> > myself). Maybe we jump too fast to the standard line "I don't know,
>>> but one day
>>> > we'll find out in heaven." Is that line a short-circuit for logic
>>> and truthful
>>> > understanding?
>>> >
>>> > ...Bernie
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message----- > From: Alexanian, Moorad
>>> [mailto:alexanian@uncw.edu
>>> <mailto:alexanian@uncw.edu?>]
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:36 PM
>>> > To: Dehler, Bernie
>>> > Cc: ASA
>>> > Subject: RE: [asa] ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe)
>>> >
>>> > Let us not forget the fall of Satan before that of man.
>>> >
>>> > Moorad
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message----- > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>>> <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>
>>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>>> <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu?>] On Behalf
>>> > Of Dehler, Bernie
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:32 PM
>>> > Cc: ASA
>>> > Subject: RE: [asa] ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe)
>>> >
>>> > Dick said:
>>> > "If good, functioning, workable "designs" are due to God's
>>> handiwork, then
>>> > who or what is responsible for the flaws, defects and failures? Give
>>> > God all the responsibilty or none of it."
>>> >
>>> > Haminists (followers of Ken Ham and his interpretation) say that God
>>> made it all
>>> > good- but man's sin wrecked it. Before the fall, there were no
>>> mosquitos, or
>>> > they probably didn't drink blood back when they were first made,
>>> just like the
>>> > first lions, bears, etc. didn't eat other animals either (no animal
>>> death before
>>> > the fall, and all people were vegetarians until after the flood). So
>>> God gets
>>> > credit for good; man's sin is the reason for bad (or corruption of
>>> the good
>>> > design).
>>> >
>>> > ...Bernie
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
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>>> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Can't afford a new spring wardrobe? Go shopping in your closet instead
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Thu Apr 30 20:32:19 2009