Re: [asa] Because of us

Gentlemen,

Your conversation led me to thinking the question isn't how did we get here.
The question really is "what happens now".
And I believe that what happens now is God is going to stop human history.
Thats not front loaded. Its 180 degrees out from anything front loaded.
Its the antithesis of evolution. Evolution would continue on, and mankind
would destroy itself. This is why the messiah came - to make it possible
that God can stop human history.

Along with this stoppage there will be a physical resurrection (of a lot of
dead people). In a way it could be said to be the ultimate ID-type event.
One moment there will be a pile of chemical sludge in each grave. The
result of rotting. The next moment there will be one trillion working
cells. And its all natural. Cells are made of molecules. Which are
created by E&M fields. E&M fields are used to push the atoms around to
reconstruct the molecules. Nothing unnatural there. Can science observe the
phenomena in process? No. Can science observe the result? Yes. You will be
able to sit down and chat with the result over tea.

What I haven't been convinced of is that the designer of the cosmos put some
secret coding inside subatomic particles that will, when triggered at the
right time, cause a trillion living cells to spontaneously assemble
themselves into a human being. Not even in this "one special universe that
contains us." The nature we have, left to itself, just doesn't work that
way. At least as far as we know.

So I don't see science -either- explaining -or- ruling out these events.

Best Regards,
David Clounch

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 9:46 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

> An "anthropic principle in Biology" is exactly what I think the evidence
> from ID boils down to. A friend of mine and I have coined the term
> "bioanthropic principle" and I think that nails it.
>
> John
>
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 4/27/09, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com>* wrote:
>
> From: Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Because of us
> To: gregoryarago@yahoo.ca, asa@lists.calvin.edu
> Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 7:48 AM
>
> 
> "After all we've been through, Mike, here we are again at a new moment. It
> sounds to me like you're interested in promoting *an 'anthropic principle'
> in biology* - 'Because of us'."
>
> What did I write that made you think this?
>
> Mike
>
>
> Mike Gene wrote:
> "Once this is realized, the obstacle of chance evaporates. God does not
> need to tinker with this creation to get us to appear. He created this
> universe, among an infinite other possible universes, precisely because it
> was *the* one that would spawn *us*."
>
> After all we've been through, Mike, here we are again at a new moment. It
> sounds to me like you're interested in promoting *an 'anthropic principle'
> in biology* - 'Because of us'. Am I right about this? We humans are
> speaking to ourselves, about our biology (and also about other biologies),
> though sometimes it sounds like babble!
>
> Yes, of course there is the danger of being anthropocentric, but that is
> not the main obstacle. Religious humility (in its multiple forms) can
> overcome this. The main obstacle seems to be in getting 'us' to work
> together to unify our diversities, to seek philosophical-spiritual knowledge
> in addition to scientific-technical knowledge and to recognize how we can
> contextualise and relate our knowledge of ourselves (which has been made at
> least partly by us) and of the universe (which is also given to us) to our
> knowledge of our Creator, our Lord.
>
> If what you're after is indeed such an 'anthropic principle in biology,'
> I'll be sure to meet you on the playing field or at the discussion table on
> your quest, Mike.
> Cheers,
> Gregory
>
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 4/27/09, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com>* wrote:
>
>
> There are two main obstacles in reconciling Darwinian evolution and
> orthodox Christianity:
>
>
>
> 1. Darwinian evolution entails that chance plays a central part of our
> history, as random variations provide the material for selection to cull. So
> deeply ingrained is the role of chance that the late Stephen Jay Gould was
> fond of saying that if the tape of life was replayed from the beginning, an
> entirely different reality would exist, a reality that would not include us.
> This is simply because we could not count on all the various coincidences
> and accidents to play out again exactly as they played out in our history.
>
>
>
> 2. Darwinian evolution entails that death and suffering played a central
> part of our coming into existence. It is the “struggle for survival”,
> involving predation and disease, that has been a core part of our
> evolutionary history.
>
>
>
> Orthodox Christianity views human life as an inevitable part of Creation
> and death/disease as a consequence of the Fall.
> How shall we reconcile these?
> If God could have created any one of an infinite number of creations, why
> did He create this one? Because of *us*. That is, this is the creation,
> the *only* creation, in which *we* exist. We cannot exist in any other
> creation. Other humans or humanoids might exist in other creations, but
> they would not be *us*.
> This creation exists because it is *our* home, that is, where *we* were
> born and where *we* live.
>
> So what makes us *us*? Our genetic identities. Our experiences. Our
> memories. Our choices. Since all of the things that make us *us* are part
> of *this* creation, *this creation must exist if we are to exist*.
>
>
>
> So how did we come into existence? Was it the miracle of Creationism? Was
> it the natural law and evolutionary convergence of Conway Morris or Denton ?
> Was it by front-loading evolution? Or was it the mixture of natural
> selection and contingency as outlined by Dawkins and Gould?
>
>
>
> Answer – *it doesn’t matter.* However we came into existence *had to be*because
> *that was the way we came into existence*. It’s a package deal.
>
>
>
> So it would not matter if Dawkins/Gould was correct. Because even if chance
> and natural selection brought us into existence, well, then that’s what
> would be needed to bring *us* into existence. God is still in control
> because this very reality where chance and natural selection brought us into
> existence would not exist and be sustained if God had not wanted to commune
> with us. God choose to create this reality whereby chance and natural
> selection brought us into existence because that is our reality and our
> history. From God’s perspective, beyond our space-time reality, our
> emergence was inevitable and foreknown because the very reason this reality
> was chosen into existence is precisely because God knew it would spawn us,
> regardless of the mechanism. Creation runs through us and exists because of
> us.
>
>
>
> Once this is realized, the obstacle of chance evaporates. God does not need
> to tinker with this creation to get us to appear. He created this universe,
> among an infinite other possible universes, precisely because it was *the*one that would spawn
> *us*.
>
>
>
> So why did God create this reality? It’s the most mysterious and humbling
> realization and revelation - God loves us.
>
>
>
> -Mike
>
>
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