Re: [asa] ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe)

Where do you get the idea that chance is purely unguided? The May
/Scientific American/ has an article on the difference the 1% makes
between chimps and humans, with a discussion of the areas of accelerated
change in the human genome. We may not know which environmental factors
and which genomic ones produce what seem to be unidirectional change, but
we observe what seems to be accelerated inline alteration. Can you
explain to me how a theistic evolutionist bars the Creator from
controlling the universe? Luther's comment that natural laws are the
masks of God makes good sense. God is there all the time. But ID insists
that we can tear the masks off. Bunk!
Dave (ASA)

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:36:57 -0400 "Cameron Wybrow"
<wybrowc@sympatico.ca> writes:
> Your objection regarding the term "Darwinian" is a verbal
> technicality,
> Dave; my point remains the same if you change it to "neo-Darwinian
> means",
> or if you add in any number of newer "mechanisms" which are
> currently mooted
> around (drift, etc.), and call it "neo-neo-Darwinian means". All of
> them
> are chance mechanisms, ultimately, when all the fancy language is
> stripped
> away. The task of neo-neo-Darwinism, then, is to prove that chance
> can
> produce integrated complex systems. Behe's argument is that it
> can't. He
> may be right, or he may be wrong, but there is no point in
> obfuscating the
> issue. The choice is, and always has been (since the days of the
> ancient
> Greeks) "by design or by chance".
>
> The problem with TE (at least in most of its formulations) is that
> it is
> simply unclear about the extent of the complexity-building powers it
> allows
> to chance. To read TE writers, the cause of mutations etc. is sort
> of
> chance, and sort of God's action, and sort of neither, and sort of
> both --
> that's what TE sounds like, to an outsider seeking theoretical
> clarity. It
> sounds vague.
>
> ID, on the other hand, is razor-sharp in clarity on that point. It
> draws a
> line in the sand. It says that chance is simply not sufficient. It
> says
> that there must be an input of intelligence. The input might be
> before the
> Big Bang, with no further inputs necessary (front-loaded
> naturalistic
> evolution). It might be at one or more points after that
> (intervention,
> quantum-concealed or otherwise). ID does not specify. But it says
> that the
> input is necessary.
>
> Tell me, Dave: do you believe that chance mechanisms -- include the
> whole
> passel of them if you want -- could, *utterly unguided by God or
> some other
> intelligence*, turn atoms into Adam, molecules into Mendel, bacteria
> into
> Bohr? And if you do believe that, why do you bring God into the
> picture at
> all? And if you don't believe that, how does your view differ
> substantially
> from Behe's, except in jargon?
>
> Cameron.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "D. F. Siemens, Jr." <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
> To: <wybrowc@sympatico.ca>
> Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [asa] ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe)
>
>
> > But "purely Darwinian means" are no longer relevant in biology,
> unless
> > one desires to be anachronistic. Darwin, for example, had no
> > understanding of genetics, and even the rediscovery of Mendel's
> work is
> > now vastly superceded. I have read numerous references to
> irreducible
> > complexity, but they seem to represent /ipse dixit/, with various
> > experiments indicating that the complexity can be produced by
> natural
> > processes. Indeed, from what I've encountered, "irreducible
> complexity"
> > seems closely equivalent to "God of the gaps."
> > Dave (ASA)
> >
> > On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:24:04 -0400 "Cameron Wybrow"
> > <wybrowc@sympatico.ca> writes:
> >> Uhhh, Bernie ...
> >>
> >> This is not an accurate representation of Behe's thought.
> >>
> >> Let me modify your words to make them correct:
> >>
> >> > Behe 1: "I have no problem with biological evolution of humans
> >> from
> >> > apelike creatures, *or with biological evolution generally*."
> >> >
> >> > Behe 2: "Evolution *by purely Darwinian means* is impossible
> >> because of
> >> > irreducible complexity."
> >>
> >> Note that Behe 1 is entirely compatible with Behe 2.
> >>
> >> If I may add a general remark, addressed not just to Bernie but
> to
> >> everyone
> >> here: why are ID proponents' arguments so often misrepresented
> and
> >>
> >> mischaracterized here? A couple of months ago someone
> >> mischaracterized
> >> Behe, and Ted Davis had to jump in to correct the person, with
> an
> >> exact
> >> quotation from Behe. And over the last several months I've
> noticed
> >> several
> >> remarks which suggest to me that some people here are not
> reading
> >> the actual
> >> works of Behe, Dembski, and other ID theorists, but are
> criticizing
> >> them
> >> based on hearsay. I find this disturbing, especially since a
> number
> >> of
> >> people here have Ph.D.s. Is it not part of doctoral-level
> training
> >> to
> >> acquire the habit of reading sources carefully before one
> criticizes
> >> them?
> >>
> >> Cameron.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> >> Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
> >> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 4:59 PM
> >> Subject: RE: [asa] ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe)
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi Ted-
> >> >
> >> > Gregory is pointing out the confusion in ID circles. Did
> >> evolution happen
> >> > or not? I suppose Behe could host a debate featuring two
> >> opponents:
> >> > himself vs. himself.
> >> >
> >> > Behe 1: "I have no problem with biological evolution of humans
> >> from
> >> > apelike creatures."
> >> >
> >> > Behe 2: "Evolution is impossible because of irreducible
> >> complexity."
> >> >
> >> > ...Bernie
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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> >>
> >>
> > ____________________________________________________________
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>
>
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Received on Fri Apr 24 23:56:46 2009