"Bible - only" and "All the stories in the Bible are narratives of real historical events" aren't the same.
Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
----- Original Message -----
From: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: ASA
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:00 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's Ark- the debate over floods... and biblical interpretation
George said:
"There is no strong reason to claim 2"
If you go "Bible-only" I think there are strong reasons, as the text, to me, seems to indicate it was a real historical event. I think the only issue is when science is consulted. This science wasn't known to the ancients- those who wrote the Bible.
Maybe Jesus didn't know either. He didn't know everything. Like when he was a toddler and had to learn how to be potty-trained, walk, speak, read, and write. If someone thinks Jesus knew everything, when did that happen (at age 12 for example?)?
.Bernie
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:09 AM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's Ark- the debate over floods... and biblical interpretation
It's important to distinguish between 2 claims:
1) The biblical flood stories make use of memories of Mesopotamian floods.
2) The biblical flood stories are an historical account of a Mesopotamian flood.
1 is very reasonable. There is no strong reason to claim 2 and problems with doing so (including the fact that Gen.6-8 combines at least 2 accounts - note the plural "stories" above.)
Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
----- Original Message -----
From: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: ASA
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's Ark- the debate over floods... and biblical interpretation
Hi Dick- Scientifically, the problem with a local flood is that there's no way the water could be contained for a year. You need a bowl shape to do that, and there is no bowl shape. How were the rivers dammed-up? If you believe in a flood, how long do you think Noah was floating on an ark- for about a year as the bible indicates?
Ancient history is full of myths, so it would be no surprise to find another. However, the Lamoureux position, which I represent, says the history and science of the Bible is incidental- the theology is what the Bible is good for. It uses the science and history of the day to give theology.
Don't worry about pile-up's on me- I usually find them humorous if they happen ;-)
.Bernie
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:55 AM
To: 'Merv Bitikofer'
Cc: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's Ark- the debate over floods... and biblical interpretation
I don't mean to "pile on" anybody, especially a brother in Christ. It's just that I feel a little frustration, like a rancher whose barn catches on fire and as soon as he pulls the horses out they run back in again. Admittedly the evidence for Adam that I've talked about on this list for many years now, while tantalizing, is less than conclusive. But the total evidence for a flood in southern Mesopotamia around 2900 BC is overwhelming in my judgment.
As for a global flood, the Nephilim (giants) in Gen. 6:4 are ancestral to the Anakim in Num. 13:33. If the Pentateuch itself tells us there are flood survivors then the flood cannot be global nor did the writer(s) of Genesis think it was. Add to that the Sumerian king list that enumerates pre-flood kings and post-flood kings and the absence of any geological evidence, and that should settle it. End of debate.
The flood was local to the immediate area and judgment on Noah's kin.
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Merv Bitikofer
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:49 PM
To: asa
Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's Ark- the debate over floods... and biblical interpretation
Well, since Dick may have started a "let's pile on Bernie" activity, I
don't want to feel left out; so I challenge you, Bernie on a different
point. Why does attempting to be faithful to both the Bible and science
weaken the testimony of both? If somebody's *understanding* of the Bible
becomes clearly seen to be false, (whether shown by other deeper
Biblical insights, science, or anything else) then that *understanding*
should be shed for the millstone it is, and the remaining faith, if it
ever was true, should get clearer focus with another false prop removed.
Pity the one, though, who was hoisted up using a false prop but hasn't
yet crawled off it onto a sturdier foundation. How many of us have been
vulnerable like that? --I swallow my own flippancy. The only sure
foundation I ever had is Christ.
--Merv
(from the top-of-the-head stuff is fun, Bernie, if you don't mind being
picked on and having it picked apart later.)
Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>
> Here's my take, from the top of my head:
>
> Global flood:
>
> Strength: The Bible appears to be reporting real history, and this
> interpretation treats it as such.
>
> Weakness: Almost completely ignores evidence from modern science.
>
> Local Flood:
>
> Strength: It tries to integrate the story of the Bible with scientific
> evidence.
>
> Weakness: Tries to be faithful to both the Bible and science and in so
> doing, weakens the testimony of both.
>
> No Flood:
>
> Strength: Most closely aligns to scientific evidence from geology and
> biology.
>
> Weakness: Destroys faith in the Bible as "inerrant" in matters of
> history and science.
>
> .Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> On Behalf Of gordon brown
> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:04 PM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's Ark- the debate over floods... and biblical
> interpretation
>
> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>
> > I'm going to be debating Noah's Ark- global flood, local flood, or no
> flood. I'm taking the no flood position.
>
> >
>
> > Curious-
>
> >
>
> > What all do you think would be the best argument for each position?
>
> >
>
> > Please keep your answers short- no essays.
>
> >
>
> > Info on my event:
>
> > http://www.meetup.com/sciligion/calendar/9503416/
>
> >
>
> > ....Bernie
>
> >
>
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Received on Tue Apr 7 16:14:41 2009
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