Re: [asa] Anti-Creationist Psychobabble On the Web - non-natural agents?

Thank you BIll for an important question in its own right.
 
After George's call to silence dissenting voices, perhaps you'll ally with his authority and choose not to answer me, Keith. But what you've written below about 'natural agents' is not quite clear.
 
First you say: "Natural agents are events or processes..."

Then you say: "natural agents...impact their environment and by their actions cause a subsequent event or process"
 
To clarify: are you saying 'agents' *are* 'events or processes' or that they *impact* and *cause* 'events or processes'? Surely you acknowledge a significant difference between these two positions. Likewise, a chemical agent and a human agent are quite different things, with alternative (though sometimes overlapping) languages involved.
 
We are definitely in agreement with your final statement Keith: "Humans are obviously powerful natural agents in the natural world."
 
I wonder what you then do with the 'non-natural' aspects of humankind and our 'lifeworld' (lebenswelt) in which 'events or processes occur too. Or do you just leave those aside in your definition of 'natural agent.'

Please do feel welcome, aside from George's censure (under the motto: "I & everyone else here") with respect to my views, to courageously take on the question and to clarify what you meant by 'non-natural agents.' Are they or are they not *only* supernatural? That question is at least of equal importance with Bill's. Can you give an example of a non-natural agent that is not a supernatural agent?
 
Let me just probe a bit more, saying that human beings are 'more than *just* natural agents' in the natural world. Wouldn't you agree Keith?
 
Sunday regards,
Gregory
 

--- On Sun, 4/5/09, Keith Miller <kbmill@ksu.edu> wrote:

From: Keith Miller <kbmill@ksu.edu>
Subject: Re: [asa] Anti-Creationist Psychobabble On the Web - non-natural agents?
To: "AmericanScientificAffiliation Affiliation" <asa@calvin.edu>
Received: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 8:22 AM

 Bill Powers wrote:

> I would ask a different question:
>
> Can you give an example of a natural agent?

Natural agents are events or processes that have a cause-and-effect link to a
subsequent event or process. For example the eruption of a volcano might be the
proximal cause (agent) for a subsequent decrease in global temperature by
increasing the concentration of sulfur-dioxide aerosols in the upper atmosphere.

Organisms are also natural agents as they impact their environment and by their
actions cause a subsequent event or process. Humans are obviously powerful
natural agents in the natural world.

Keith

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Received on Sun Apr 5 06:51:49 2009