Re: [asa] Anti-Creationist Psychobabble On the Web

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 12:22 PM, D. F. Siemens, Jr. <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>wrote:

> Methodological naturalism is NOT metaphysical. It is the same for
> atheists, deists, theists, panentheists, pantheists, and those who have
> no idea what metaphysical position they embrace.

Dave,
One problem I have is I don't know what teacher A does differently by
teaching MN than teacher B who does not. It makes no difference.

Until you have a religious student to whom you feel the need to try to
explain something. BINGO! This trips over the Lemon test (and some other
things). IMHO. :)

To those who are completely secular there is nothing to talk about. To those
who are concerned with religion then MN is needed.

An analogy (all analogies are flawed of course):
If I go to the store and buy meat I don't need to know that its
"methodologically natural" (even though someone may believe it might be).
But if I go to the store and ask for Kosher meat, then religion comes into
it. MN is like that.

Perhaps the question really is whether these ideas are religious enough that
they have to be excluded.

> The only way to give it
> a metaphysical/religious twist is to misdefine it as Johnson did (and
> refuses to correct his false view).
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 22:09:23 -0600 (MDT) Bill Powers <wjp@swcp.com>
> writes:
> > Kirk:
> >
> > You say that MN is neutral with respect to religion.
> >
> > Let me leave that aside and ask whether you (or George) thinks that
> > MN
> > is metaphysicially neutral.
> >
> > Whether you think them questionable or not it appears to me that
> > science
> > surely makes some metaphysical presumptions, even they may vary with
> > time.
> > The kinds of explanations we permit, even MN itself, is
> > metaphysical.
> > Were it not metaphysical what would it be? Surely not empirical.
> > Is it
> > merely a convention? No, I think not. What we mean by a particle,
> > or
> > what is a "thing." Are these metaphysical? They fit a template,
> > perhaps
> > a changing one.
> >
> > I guess what I am briefly suggesting is that science, whether it be
> > MN or
> > something else, paints a possible picture of the world. It
> > constrains the
> > world, only permitting some ill-defined possibilities, and excluding
> >
> > others. There can be no discontinuities, the world is a Uni-verse;
> > it
> > must obey rational law. This is certainly a more classic view,
> > although
> > Nancy Cartwright suggests that the world is "messy," a different
> > "world" I
> > think.
> >
> > Finally, how do we distinguish metaphysics from religion? Heidegger
> > is
> > famous for saying that no one worships the causa sui. So perhaps no
> > one,
> > but Hegel, sings to metaphysics. Still they touch noses, it seems.
> >
> > bill powers
> >
> > On
> > Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Kirk Bertsche wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > I don't understand your comments about "George Murphy's views on
> >
> > > methodological naturalism" being "religion."
> > >
> > > Based on George's comments, his view of MN seems to be pretty
> > standard, and
> > > is the way that we we do science. (And I would argue that this is
> > the way
> > > that we SHOULD do science.) It is METHODOLOGICAL, not
> > METAPHYSICAL
> > > naturalism. It makes no religious claims at all, and keeps
> > science neutral
> > > with respect to religion.
> > >
> > > What am I missing?
> > >
> > > Kirk
> > >
> > >
> > > On Apr 1, 2009, at 10:56 PM, David Clounch wrote:
> > >
> > >> This is why I oppose George Murphy's views on methodological
> > naturalism.
> > >> To me it's religion and I want that religion separated from
> > school as far
> > >> as the east is from the west.
> > >> I don't mind if George Murphy holds his view personally because
> > he is
> > >> entitled to his religion. I just don't want a public school to
> > base its
> > >> science curriculum on George's religion.
> > >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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> >
> >
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