RE: [asa] Two questions...Ayala's article

I am bothered by the notion that some on the list seem to have taken the
position that the human mind's ability to recognize design patterns does
not come from genetics or from nature. Instead some seem to feel the ability
comes from God and is thus supernatural in origin. That seems to go along
with the idea that the human mind is supernatural in general.

I'm not bothered by that at all, in fact I agree with it! At least in part.
As I say below, I don't equate the mind with the spirit exactly. I think
they are close, that one needs the mind given us by God to have the spirit.

But, when talking about Adam and Eve the very nature of what a human being
is comes into play. Is that beyond biology, or not?

Truly, it is where the integration of science and faith happen, in my
opinion.

The idea that human psychology is a study of the supernatural? (of a
supernatural phenomena as opposed to a natural phenomena?) I suspect most
psychologists would reject that notion. Wouldn't they?

Most would, yes. But then, many of them think Freud was a brilliant man. I
think he was a weenie. J

But, if it *were* true, then is it worth asking what folks believe about
the population from whence came the first true humans? Was this
"embellishment" with a supernatural mind (or whatever one would

call it - and I am uncertain as to what the concept should be labeled) was
this embellishment applied to a group (a whole population), or was it
applied to a single pair as some theological views would claim?

The first historical event one might place this at would be what's known as
the "Cultural Explosion" that occurred at about 40 kBC. It is about this
time that a major change is seen in the archaeological record. Before that,
there are toolkits going back for millions of years, but very little change.
After that, cultural developments happened with a greatly increased rapidity
with regards to the eons preceding. Was this when God imbued man with a
spiritual existence? Or was this simply the intellectual framework for the
soul? I think that this "explosion" is from God, is interventionist, and
involved the supernatural. However that's just my framework talking
there.it's just as easy to believe that God had the hominid evolution
ticking along just so, and that this explosion was a well timed but natural
phenomenon, as far as anyone can tell from objective scientific measures.
But even then, I can't tell you for sure if that is when God breathed life
into Adam, and he became a living being.

If to a single pair, then did the rest of the population not get it at all?
meaning, perhaps, that the non-humans in the group did not have a soul?

This question presumes that there was an extant population that was alive
and prospering, and that there was not a significant bottleneck.

But Adam and Eve did have a soul?

Yep. I believe they did.

And the big question is why is this cognitive ability not passed down
genetically? Are any reasons put forth?

That is presumptive not only that a supernatural force or entity can be
equated to a cognitive ability, but also that cognition is not (at least in
part) determined genetically. I don't think the former is true; I
distinguish between cognitive ability and spiritual existence. However, I do
feel that man has the "hardware" necessary to do both. I think one's
cognitive ability is determined multifactorially, and one of those factors
is genetics.

One also has to ask whether the ability to recognize design patterns perhaps
precedes the first humans and was in the general population, or even in the
population of non-human primates or even other species. Is it really
associated only with soulful minds?

I suppose it relates to what exactly you mean by "recognize design patterns"
but suspect like many things, primates have a primitive ability to do this.
They have primitive means of communication.

In other words, what criteria would one use to set aside notions of deism
and move toward a naturalistic theism? The answer to that is surely
affected by whether one believes what one is interacting with across the
dinner table is a supernatural phenomena or a purely natural phenomena.

Interesting.

And again, if the essentials of the human mind don't spring forth from the
genes, then how can science even investigate human origins whatsoever?

Or even better, how can science and faith be integrated at all then?

JP

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Received on Tue Feb 24 23:03:58 2009