The question of an immaterial soul gets us into metaphysics, about which
science can say nothing. Only if mind is purely the product of brain can
science deal with mind comprehensively. Even then there may be some
problems if mind is emergent.
Consider a problem that comes up with causation. Generally, causes are
transitive, so that, if A causes B and B causes C, we conclude that A
causes C. Thus, if the reduced intensity of light at sunset caused the
sensor to close the relay, and the closed relay caused the light to go
on, we'll agree that the sunset state caused the lighting. But we'll not
say that the reduced light caused Al to flip a switch. Al's mind is not
viewed as a mechanical device in a causal chain. Materialists will argue
that this is because the brain is so complex that we do not yet
understand its working, but that is a deduction from a metaphysical
position, not a scientific conclusion.
Dave (ASA)
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:13:25 +1800 David Clounch
<david.clounch@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:43 PM, David Opderbeck
> <dopderbeck@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dave Clounch, I'm not sure about what your concern is.
> Personally, my view
> > of human nature is one of "holistic dualism." I think human
> beings have a
> > "spiritual" nature -- the "soul" -- that is more than the aspects
> of the
> > "human" that are reducible to biology. At the same time, I think
> human
> > beings are a "whole," not merely "embodied souls." Given this, I
> think it's
> > likely that there are aspects of human nature that simply cannot
> be
> > investigated by science. I would suggest that, at the very least,
> the first
> > true humans -- Adam and Eve -- were imparted this spiritual nature
> and that
> > it was subsequently propogated throughout the biological human
> species. I
> > don't think this has anything to do with genetics.
>
> Surely PZ Meyers and other materialists would beg to disagree? And
> wouldnt they say they do this on scientific grounds? Why would they
> be wrong merely because some theologians say they are wrong? What
> sort of belief system is dualism? Is it a
> secular idea? Or something reserved for church?
>
> Thinking just a bit out of the box for a moment,
> let me ask this: Could this imparted spiritual nature have been
> given
> to Chimpanzees or some other species rather than homo sapiens? Or
> did
> homo sapiens have some supporting resources that other species
> didn't
> possess?
>
> Think of it as software. One wouldnt be very successful trying to
> run
> a higher level desktop operating system (such as Vista or RedHat
> Enterprise Linux) on a linkysys wireless-G router because the 200
> MHz ARM processor is too slow and there just are not enough
> resources
> there in the box. So homo sapiens may possibly be the physical
> prerequisite of the human mind or race. Doesn't genetics have a lot
> to do with that? Genetics might not be the cause but it might be the
> prerequisite to the "imparting" of special cognitive abilities.
>
>
> >
> > However, there is a robust debate even within evangelical circles
> at the
> > moment about monism-vs-dualism. In a recent and very engaging
> book, Joel
> > Green of Fuller Seminary argues for an essentially monist position
> based on
> > both the Biblical and scientific evidence ("Body, Soul and Human
> Life").
> > John Cooper of Calivn College is a key proponent of holistic
> dualism ("Body,
> > Soul & Life Everlasting"), while William Hasker argues for
> emergentism ("The
> > Emergent Self"). It should be noted that even Christians who are
> monist or
> > emergentist with respect to the "soul" are not reductive
> materialists. In
> > other words, all of the foregoing theologians agree that human
> beings are
> > more than biology -- that we have some capacity to exercise agency
> and free
> > will -- and that God is spiritual and yet ontologically personal
> and real
> > apart from any biology.
> >
> That is interesting. But....
> Doesn't that really only apply only in the field of theology? I
> mean,
> it goes toward answering Christian theological questions. But does
> it
> do anything from the viewpoint of science? I suspect it does
> nothing
> from a scientific perspective. So I would expect Dawkins and Meyers
> to
> reject it all as religion. And why shouldn't they?
>
> And this of course is what bothers me about the whole idea of saying
> human psychology is a study of the supernatural. If one is going to
> reject *anything* purely because it is religious then why would this
> rejection not apply across the board to anything that stems from
> religious thinking?
>
> To list some items commonly rejected by list members:
>
> A. Some people reject creationism merely because it is religious.
> B. Others reject ID merely because (they claim) it is religious.
> C. Others reject anything theistic (even TE) because it comes from
> religious thinking.
>
> The invocation of the supernatural is widely claimed as being the
> kiss
> of death to any idea that otherwise may possibly be addressed by
> science. And many members here champion that it should be the
> kiss
> of death. So I find it a bit shocking that anyone can claim human
> minds are supernatural phenomena and go completely unchallenged.
> Someone who does want to challenge this claim of the supernatural
> of
> course will then say it does all come from genetics - it all comes
> from nature and natural processes. But the onus is then upon that
> person to explain how a design recognizer appears in the human
> brain
> in the absence of the alleged supernatural influence.
> At the very least it implies there ought to be a mathematics
> undergirding the design detection. The fact we may not have
> discovered the math is no proof the math doesn't exist. Wishing
> the
> phenomena onto a supernatural basis seems to me to be more of a God
> of
> the gaps type thing to do.
>
> And there we go. People reject ideas because they smell of being a
> God
> of the gaps type of idea. And why is the human mind suddenly ok to
> be delegated to the gap when it is not ok for other things to be in
> the gap?
>
> I would be happier with someone trying to propose a "mathematical
> proof" of the impossibility of a design detection algorithm. That
> at
> least would be a rational approach! Instead, invoking the
> supernatural to explain the human mind's abilities seems to me to be
> sort of brushing it under the rug to get rid of it. Very easy for a
> religionist to do. Its the last thing I would expect a scientist to
> do. I've been waiting for members to reject the notion and they
> haven't (AFAIK).
>
> But if one could show that a design recognition algorithm is
> mathematically impossible, and if one also rejects supernatural
> influence, then one has a _real_ _mystery_ on one's hands. Horns
> of
> a dilemma?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > David W. Opderbeck
> > Associate Professor of Law
> > Seton Hall University Law School
> > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, David Clounch
> <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I don't know quite _where_ to ask my question. But I am
> bothered
> >> by the notion that some on the list seem to have taken the
> position
> >> that the human mind's ability to recognize design patterns does
> not
> >> come from genetics or from nature.
> >> Instead some seem to feel the ability comes from God and is thus
> >> supernatural in origin. That seems to go along with the idea that
> the
> >> human mind is supernatural in general.
> >>
> >> First, a disclaimer. I didnt originate the ideas I am referring
> to.
> >> List members did that. Second, I'd prefer to focus on the
> biology, not
> >> on the human mind and other subjects. But, when talking about
> Adam
> >> and Eve the very nature of what a human being is comes into play.
> Is
> >> that beyond biology, or not?
> >>
> >> I'm not taking any position on this, but I find it interesting as
> an
> >> idea. The idea that human psychology is a study of the
> supernatural?
> >> (of a supernatural phenomena as opposed to a natural phenomena?)
> I
> >> suspect most psychologists would reject that notion. Wouldn't
> they?
> >>
> >> But, if it *were* true, then is it worth asking what folks
> believe
> >> about the population from whence came the first true humans? Was
> >> this "embellishment" with a supernatural mind (or whatever one
> would
> >> call it - and I am uncertain as to what the concept should be
> >> labelled) was this embellishment applied to a group (a whole
> >> population), or was it applied to a single pair as some
> theological
> >> views would claim? If to a single pair, then did the rest of
> the
> >> population not get it at all? (meaning, perhaps, that the
> non-humans
> >> in the group did not have a soul? But Adam and Eve did have a
> soul?)
> >>
> >> And the big question is why is this cognitive ability not passed
> down
> >> genetically? Are any reasons put forth?
> >>
> >> One also has to ask whether the ability to recognize design
> patterns
> >> perhaps precedes the first humans and was in the general
> population,
> >> or even in the population of non-human primates or even other
> species.
> >> Is it really associated only with soulful minds?
> >>
> >> I suspect some may think this line of inquiry not worthy of
> >> investigation. But it seems to me that for James's concern to be
> >> addressed one must look at the issue of just what it really is,
> in
> >> the minds of members, that made modern humans human. At what
> point did
> >> humans get truly human abilities and even souls? Are souls real?
> Do
> >> they correlate with cognitive ability? In other words, what
> criteria
> >> would one use to set aside notions of deism and move toward a
> >> naturalistic theism? The answer to that is surely affected by
> >> whether one believes what one is interacting with across the
> dinner
> >> table is a supernatural phenomena or a purely natural phenomena.
> >>
> >> And again, if the essentials of the human mind don't spring forth
> from
> >> the genes, then how can science even investigate human origins
> >> whatsoever? Can anyone see why I have difficulty with the list
> >> discussion here at the beginning of 2009?
> >> I am worried about the ASA because it seems the list has stumbled
> into
> >> territory, both theologically and scientifically, that I had
> never
> >> even heard of previously.
> >>
> >> -Dave
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 7:46 AM, James Patterson
> >> <james000777@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >> > David wrote:
> >> >
> >> > -- do you accept the evidence for an old universe and earth?
> >> >
> >> > Yes, absolutely.
> >> >
> >> > If so, aren't you being inconsistent in rejecting the
> conclusions
> >> > population
> >> > geneticists draw from the MHC data based on the presumption
> you've drawn
> >> > from the Bible that there must have been only one pair from
> whom all
> >> > present
> >> > humans directly are genetically descended? The YEC's, after
> all, make
> >> > exactly the same argument about the "days" of creation, the age
> of the
> >> > earth, and the nature of Noah's flood.
> >> >
> >> > No, I don't think so, not at all. First, and as I said, I don't
> think
> >> > MHC
> >> > data should be used much, if at any, for this kind of thing. I
> am also
> >> > not
> >> > sure how that ties into the next part of your statement. But
> the
> >> > evidence
> >> > for the Big Bang, the age of the universe, the age of the
> earth, that's
> >> > all
> >> > "hard" science – physics and cosmology. It is much more defined
> and
> >> > clear
> >> > than the biological sciences. It's very hard to argue with
> mathematical
> >> > equations like those that define our universe. However, the
> math used in
> >> > Ayala's paper is *much* less clear, and the math used in the
> entire
> >> > field of
> >> > population genetics isn't nailed down yet…just look at some of
> the
> >> > references. We don't understand this field well enough in
> general, and I
> >> > don't accept or understand the science well enough to take a
> position
> >> > that
> >> > it is impossible to have an n=2. I think that some very good
> evidence
> >> > for
> >> > their being an n=2 is that is what the Bible tells us, and it
> seems
> >> > reasonably clear that an n of 2 is what is indicated – I don't
> see a way
> >> > around that. The strongest argument I see for there being some
> other
> >> > answer
> >> > to this is Dick Fischer's argument that it was an n=2, but they
> were the
> >> > first ancient Hebrews, not the first man. However, I have to
> state that
> >> > I
> >> > don't accept that position (although I haven't read his book
> yet, it's
> >> > on
> >> > order Dick). The Bible seems generally clear that it refers to
> the
> >> > origins
> >> > of mankind – all of mankind.
> >> >
> >> > The essential foundation of my argument is that in general,
> what the
> >> > Bible
> >> > says and what science says agree. YOM doesn't mean a literal
> day. The
> >> > Hebrews didn't mean a global flood. How Genesis is interpreted
> is
> >> > obviously
> >> > not easy, and not clear, or we wouldn't be here talking about
> it.
> >> >
> >> > -- you say, ". . . we see the emergence of man in the correct
> *general*
> >> > location, from (at least) a small population, sometime in the
> past." I
> >> > used
> >> > to find this kind of argument from RTB et al. somewhat
> persuasive.
> >> >
> >> > However, let's be honest: central Africa is not the same
> "general
> >> > location"
> >> > as Mesopotamia,
> >> >
> >> > Yes, it is. First off, I think it' East Africa. But I'm not
> going to
> >> > split
> >> > hairs. And even if you draw that circle down to Tanzania and
> Ethiopia,
> >> > it's
> >> > still in the same general location. We do not understand mans
> origins
> >> > well
> >> > enough to put him in anything other than Africa. That's fine.
> It's not
> >> > Europe, it's not Australia, it's not America, it's not Russia,
> it's not
> >> > China, or India. God said he created man west of Eden. Africa
> is west of
> >> > Eden. Sure, most of it is also south…but it's still west. I
> don't really
> >> > think that's worth belaboring…it agrees well enough. Science
> puts the
> >> > origins of man in Africa, and the first civilizations in
> Mesopotamia.
> >> > The
> >> > Bible put's the creation of man west of Eden, and Eden in
> Mesopotamia.
> >> > That
> >> > agrees well enough for me. Here's the map again, since it
> wasn't in this
> >> > email. http://www.pattersonhistory.net/map01.jpg
> >> >
> >> > and "sometime in the past" -- if that is 150 kya or so even for
> >> > Mitochondrial Eve -- doesn't fit with the Bible's description
> of the
> >> > culture
> >> > into which Adam's immediate descendants were placed.
> >> >
> >> > I am working on that presently…and answering this thread is
> detracting
> >> > me
> >> > from that work…
> >> >
> >> > Moreover, "(at least) a small population" isn't two
> individuals. I am
> >> > no
> >> > expert either, but my sense is that for the MHC data to be
> accounted for
> >> > by
> >> > a single pair, you'd either have to have (a) diversification of
> the MHC
> >> > at a
> >> > truly astonishing (not just 'fast') rate; or (b) a whole set of
> miracles
> >> > not
> >> > mentioned in scripture.
> >> >
> >> > Not mentioned???? God creates man and woman, breaths their
> spiritual
> >> > nature
> >> > into them, and you tell me that's not mentioned? Come now. He
> doesn't
> >> > give
> >> > out details on how He did it…or what He did. If so the world
> would be a
> >> > much
> >> > simpler place. But I think it's clear – He did something.
> >> >
> >> > Isn't it more parsimonious to suggest, as John Stott did in his
> Romans
> >> > commentary, that the "image of God" and "original sin" are
> essentially
> >> > spiritual qualities rather than genetic ones? It seems to me
> that this
> >> > removes much of the burden of trying to tie Adam to the genetic
> record.
> >> >
> >> > That's not a bad point, but parsimony can be taken only so far.
> Occam's
> >> > razor can slice down to the bone of metaphysical naturalism, if
> you let
> >> > it.
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps Adam lived in (or was removed from the "garden" into) a
> context
> >> > where there were other "humans," but this says nothing of the
> spiritual
> >> > aspects of those other homo sapiens who shared the physical
> world with
> >> > Adam
> >> > and his descendants for a time.
> >> >
> >> > Well, I don't like that either, but I haven't been able to
> conceive of a
> >> > way
> >> > to pull these threads together more tightly without resorting
> to
> >> > presuppositional logic that ultimately leads to YECism.
> >> >
> >> > I don't deny that PC is a tough position. The one thing that
> brought me
> >> > here
> >> > to this position is the strong Biblical foundation, and the
> thing that
> >> > keeps
> >> > me here is that there is a model. Models can be revised based
> on new
> >> > data,
> >> > and other opinions and interpretations can be incorporated.
> This is not
> >> > true
> >> > of YEC – the entire foundation of their position is based on a
> >> > unbalanced
> >> > premise that only the Bible is true, and not science (at least
> not
> >> > anyone's
> >> > science but their own). The PC position is balanced: both Bible
> and
> >> > science.
> >> > The TE position is (in my opinion) a bit unbalanced the other
> way – too
> >> > much
> >> > reliance on only natural explanations. I know most of you don't
> agree
> >> > with
> >> > that, but hey if I wasn't here testing your positions, you
> wouldn't be
> >> > having so much fun. J
> >> >
> >> > God bless, JP
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> >
> >> > David W. Opderbeck
> >> > Associate Professor of Law
> >> > Seton Hall University Law School
> >> > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 2:47 PM, James Patterson
> >> > <james000777@bellsouth.net>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > All,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I've finally been able to get back to this thread (and
> sub-threads) and
> >> > read
> >> > them. I wanted to go read the Ayala manuscript first. I have
> read it as
> >> > well
> >> > as the comments on the article, and a few other related
> articles.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I must also classify myself as "not an expert" in this field.
> However, I
> >> > find it quite interesting to look at how often the words
> "presume" and
> >> > "presumption" are used in the Ayala article. If you look at
> this article
> >> > specifically and the field as a whole, there is significant
> controversy
> >> > over
> >> > the various models and how to interpret the results…more so
> than I am
> >> > comfortable with. This is reflected in the comment in reply to
> the Ayala
> >> > article, as well as several other articles (see below).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > All that as an aside. The main issue is the size of the "n"
> required to
> >> > pass
> >> > thru a bottleneck. Ayala argues there wasn't even a bottleneck,
> but I
> >> > think
> >> > most would agree there is plenty of evidence that there was at
> least one
> >> > if
> >> > not more bottlenecks. So I am not going to belabor that issue.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Ayala's point is that, for a given chunk of DNA, including
> mtDNA chunks,
> >> > you
> >> > may be able to trace that chunk back to a common ancestor.
> However, the
> >> > next
> >> > chunk of DNA will be from a *different* ancestor, not the same
> one,
> >> > implying
> >> > not one, but a population of "Eves". I am NOT familiar enough
> to state
> >> > for
> >> > certainty, but I thought that the mtDNA was looked at more as a
> whole
> >> > than
> >> > other DNA? It's size is about 15-17 kbp, and codes for 37
> genes.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > When we get to the point of whether there was a n=2 vs an n=X,
> Ayala
> >> > puts X
> >> > at ~100,000. He describes how it would be impossible for all
> the alleles
> >> > of
> >> > the MHC to survive a population smaller than (I think) about
> 10,000
> >> > sexually
> >> > active humans, which equates to a total population that is of
> course
> >> > larger.
> >> > The issue here of course is the MHC region. If one is going to
> look at
> >> > comparative regions and molecular clocks, it seems to me that
> the MHC
> >> > has
> >> > got to be the *worst* possible choice to use. Within the field
> of
> >> > immunology, this region of the genetic code is sometimes called
> the
> >> > G.O.D.
> >> > (interesting, yes?) region, for Generator (or Generation) Of
> Diversity.
> >> > Mutation rates here can be quite rapid. See the Hogstrand or
> Carrington
> >> > articles below.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Given that, Ayala's work does not seem to distinguish itself
> any greater
> >> > than other studies on this topic. And that gets to the heart of
> the
> >> > matter:
> >> > From a strict, naturalistic, population genetics viewpoint, a
> bottleneck
> >> > of
> >> > an n=2 is unacceptable. The only way to have an n=2 bottleneck
> is if
> >> > this
> >> > couple were quite special in some way or ways, and that isn't
> "natural".
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Thank God, I am not a strict naturalist. J
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The integration of science and faith is why we are here. You
> may want to
> >> > find a strict natural explanation of everything, because you
> think
> >> > that's
> >> > the way God works at all times. If you extrapolate this to the
> extreme,
> >> > the
> >> > TE viewpoint becomes the DE viewpoint. I think I mentioned this
> in
> >> > another
> >> > thread recently. At the very least, I think you should at least
> consider
> >> > this to be a prime example of Russell's OSP hard at work. You
> may be
> >> > able to
> >> > track the lineage of the descent of man genetically, but
> tracking the
> >> > hand
> >> > of God is another matter.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > It becomes very difficult, very quickly, to reconcile God's
> creation of
> >> > our
> >> > spiritual selves (as well as original sin) with a (large)
> population of
> >> > humans that evolved slowly. No matter how you slice it, God's
> handiwork
> >> > is
> >> > present. And if we are going to presume the hand of God being
> involved,
> >> > then
> >> > strict naturalistic explanations will ultimately fail.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > However, if you *presume* that God was involved, and that God
> created
> >> > Adam
> >> > and Eve (as the Bible tells us), and look at what the natural
> sciences
> >> > show
> >> > us, we see the emergence of man in the correct *general*
> location, from
> >> > (at
> >> > least) a small population, sometime in the past. How exactly,
> may remain
> >> > unclear. We will have to save the time question for later, tho.
> J
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > If you choose not to believe that God was intimately involved
> with the
> >> > creation of man through Adam and Eve, then that's your choice.
> As for me
> >> > and
> >> > my family, we choose God.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > God bless,
> >> >
> >> > James P
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > A few interesting references:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Gibbons A, (1993). Mitochondrial Eve refuses to die. Science,
> >> > 259(5099):1249-1250.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Ayala F, (1995). The Myth of Eve: Molecular Biology and Human
> Origins.
> >> > Science, 270(5244):1930-1936.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Erlich HA, Bergstrom TF, Stoneking M, and Gyllensten U (1996).
> HLA
> >> > Sequence
> >> > Polymorphism and the Origin of Humans (in reply to Ayala's
> article).
> >> > Science, 274(5292):1552-1554.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Watson E, Forster P, Richards M, Bandelt HJ, (1997).
> Mitochondrial
> >> > footprints of human expansions in Africa. Am J Hum Genet,
> 61(3):691-704.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Carrington M, (1999). Recombination within the human MHC.
> Immunological
> >> > Reviews, 167(1):245-256.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Gray M, Burger G, Lang BF, (1999). Mitochondrial Evolution.
> Science,
> >> > 283(5407):1476-1481.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Högstrand K, Böhme J, (1999). Gene conversion can create new
> MHC
> >> > alleles.
> >> > Immunological Reviews, 167(1):305-317.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Cann R, (2001). Genetic Clues to Dispersal in Human
> Populations:
> >> > Retracing
> >> > the Past from the Present. Science, 291(5509): 1742-1748.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Stumpf M and Goldstein D, (2001). Genealogical and Evolutionary
> >> > Inference
> >> > with the Human Y Chromosome. Science, 291(5509):1738-1742.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Zimmerman S, (2001). Population size at the time of
> mitochondrial eve.
> >> > Human
> >> > Evolution, 16(2):117-124.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Curnoe D, Thorne A, (2003) Number of ancestral human species: a
> >> > molecular
> >> > perspective. Homo, 53(3):201-224.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hagelberg E, (2003). Recombination or mutation rate
> heterogeneity?
> >> > Implications for Mitochondrial Eve. Trends Genet, 19(2):84-90.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_complex#MHC_evoluti
on_and_allelic_diversity
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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Received on Tue Feb 24 16:20:47 2009
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