Re: [asa] How to be perfect, as we all must be to see God

David:

I think there are two sides to this coin too.

Suppose someone believes that any interpretation of Scripture must
concord with contemporary science?

The problem, if it is a problem, is to fix an interpretation of
Scripture. Once an interpretation is fixed and no others permitted,
then it is possible that one runs the risk of being out of step with
science or any experience. One might, then, hold that if this
interpretation of Scripture is decided to be false, then Scripture is
unreliable.

It is always possible, I think, to both think that science and Scripture
should concord and be able to modify ones interpretation of Scripture so
that they are always in concordance. After all, the unbeliever's
interpretation of Scripture is likely in concordance with modern
science.

If this is correct, then one might be a Six Day Creationist or a TE and
if one fixes any interpretation of Scripture be at risk of having to
decide between the reliability of Scripture on the later conclusion that
that which was fixed is false.

One might say the "danger" is to hold two positions:
1) That a certain interpretation of Scripture is fixed and true for all
times and people.
2) That if that interpretation should later be decided to be false, all
of Scripture is thrown into doubt.

I would imagine that there are parts of Scripture for which most
Christians would fall into this camp. Therefore, most Christians are at
risk.

What I would ask is: of those who think they can escape this position of
risk, what does that make of faith and Scripture?

bill powers
white, sd

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009, David Opderbeck wrote:

> I think you're setting up a bit of a false dilemma here, Bill. A person can
> teach that Gen. 1-4 is best interpreted literally as simple history, another
> that it's best interpreted figuratively as accommodated myth, and another
> that it's best in interpreted as some mix of literal and figurative as
> stylized history, and yet all of those people could still agree on the basic
> proposition that Gen. 1-4 is God's word and that it is authoritative, true
> and trustworthy. The problem is the extreme: insisting that the Bible is
> in *no* sense true, trustworthy or authoritative unless Gen. 1-4 are taken
> as simple, literal history -- an extreme to which both fundamentalists and
> unbelievers go.
>
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Bill Powers <wjp@swcp.com> wrote:
>
>> There are two sides to this coin.
>>
>> Yes, perhaps some come to doubt Scripture because they believe, e.g., a Six
>> Day Creation, and later come to believe that is false, causing them to doubt
>> the reliability of Scripture.
>>
>> Others, however, are taught that although the Bible speaks of a Six Day
>> creation, Adam and Eve, they're being driven from Paradise and return barred
>> by an Angel, a worldwide flood, and Jesus and Paul speaking of Adam, Eve,
>> and Noah as if they were real people with real histories that all of this is
>> some sort of metaphor, at best, or wrong at worst. And these people are
>> taught from the beginning to distrust Scripture and its reliability, having
>> the virtue of not being disappointed later.
>>
>> It seems to me that both sides of this coin face a dilemma. They both face
>> a challenge. In both cases the challenge is between faith and man's
>> knowledge. Some have suggested that the way to resolve the conflict is to
>> make of Scripture something that is utterly outside the realm of
>> testability, or falsification. In its extreme we can speak of no real
>> Resurrection. It seems to me that by its very nature faith is intended to
>> operate in the face of contrary evidence. At some point if faith doesn't
>> show up, neither does the Christian.
>>
>> As to why some who began so "well" and later fall away, much could be said
>> and conjectured. Perhaps the seed was planted long before it bore fruit. I
>> don't think the answer is easily found.
>>
>> bill powers
>> White, SD
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 18 Feb 2009, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>
>> Dick said:
>>> "Is "truth about the universe" important? If someone believes the Bible
>>> teaches the world is six thousand years old or there was no death in the
>>> animal world until Adam made a bad choice because a "Christian" told him
>>> that, and he misses out on salvation because he believes therefore the Bible
>>> writers were less than inspired, then try to tell that poor soul enduring
>>> "wailing and gnashing of teeth" for all eternity that it wasn't something
>>> important."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is very true. Some are so overly concerned about evangelizing the
>>> youth, then don't seem to care at all when they lose them when they get to
>>> high school or college (as soon as they learn a little science). It is like
>>> they think "Oh well, that's what happens when kids get corrupted by the
>>> world from these worldly schools. We need to do a better job of sheltering
>>> them (through home-schooling, etc.)."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nobody can condone rude behavior, but sometimes the debate is over what
>>> constitutes "rudeness." That's why if there's a problem with rudeness, the
>>> specific example should be raised. Sometimes people are overly sensitive,
>>> and in a way they are being rude by calling others rude when they really
>>> aren't. There are people who whine and complain with no reasonable valid
>>> basis for it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ...Bernie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>>> Behalf Of Dick Fischer
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 6:45 AM
>>> To: 'Preston Garrison'
>>> Cc: ASA
>>> Subject: RE: [asa] How to be perfect, as we all must be to see God
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Preston, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "The way to do that is to put love, the Spirit led love that knows
>>>
>>> what is needed at every moment,above every other value, including the
>>>
>>> truth about the universe and other people's sins and intellectual
>>>
>>> failings."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps my perspective comes from reading books front to back instead of
>>>
>>> starting in the middle and reading inside out, but as I see the first
>>>
>>> mistake it was not in Adam's failure to love his God or his wife, it was
>>> his
>>>
>>> failure to obey. How one would priortize love and obedience could be
>>>
>>> debated, but love isn't all there is as the uninspired song writer put it
>>> -
>>>
>>> and neither is obedience.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Christ told the Apostles to go into all the world and make disciples.
>>> Since
>>>
>>> all the Apostles have died it falls on us to carry on the commission.
>>> What
>>>
>>> would be the first thing we would tell someone inquiring about our faith?
>>>
>>> God loves us might be the first thing. But in terms of how we react to
>>> the
>>>
>>> love of God, from the standpoint of what we who love God should do, we
>>> show
>>>
>>> our love for God by paying attention to his directives and obeying Him.
>>> And
>>>
>>> one way we show obedience to God is by showing love for our fellow man.
>>> So
>>>
>>> love and obedience may be intertwined a bit.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For me, I see roadblocks put in the way of people who might otherwise come
>>>
>>> to Christ. Some of those roadblocks come from those who profess to know
>>>
>>> Christ. I try to show my obedience to Christ's commission and my love for
>>>
>>> my fellow man and concern for his mortal soul, by exposing fallacies that
>>>
>>> serve as impediments to faith.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is "truth about the universe" important? If someone believes the Bible
>>>
>>> teaches the world is six thousand years old or there was no death in the
>>>
>>> animal world until Adam made a bad choice because a "Christian" told him
>>>
>>> that, and he misses out on salvation because he believes therefore the
>>> Bible
>>>
>>> writers were less than inspired, then try to tell that poor soul enduring
>>>
>>> "wailing and gnashing of teeth" for all eternity that it wasn't something
>>>
>>> important.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Truth is important. Christ said, "I am the truth, the way, and the life
>>>
>>> ..." What comes first? If I offend thousands of sensitive Christians to
>>>
>>> reach one person with the gospel and he is saved through Christ, then I'll
>>>
>>> do it. And if I offend anyone on this list, I apologise.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dick Fischer, GPA president
>>>
>>> Genesis Proclaimed Association
>>>
>>> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
>>>
>>> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Received on Wed Feb 18 19:08:43 2009