Re: [asa] Fear and Loathing on this list

Dave S. said; *Why do you take my illustration personally? Does some of the
problem under discussion spring from taking objective critiques as personal
attacks?*

I respond: yes you are probably right. Not to delve too deeply into my own
personal pathologies, but I wonder if being a bit too thin-skinned and
defensive is an attribute of many recovering fundamentalists who were taught
the *being right about almost everyting* is of eternal importance. Which is
a key reason I'm very sensitive to comments like Preston's. People who have
been shattered by the failure of fundamentalism come here, and what they
need most is encouragement and hope.

David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 1:18 PM, D. F. Siemens, Jr. <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>wrote:

> I stand corrected about the use of Matthew 23, but I am surprised. I
> recall the story of the pastor who had ruffled feathers by preaching on the
> sins of the congregation. So the next Sunday he began, "I am preaching this
> morning on the sins of the Hottentots. I trust there are none in
> attendance."
>
> Why do you take my illustration personally? Does some of the problem under
> discussion spring from taking objective critiques as personal attacks?
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:13:55 -0500 David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> writes:
>
> Wrong. They were applied to hypocrisy in our own hearts.
>
> Why do you feel the need to wander completely off the reservation of this
> discussion and start rambling about YEC's? Do you think I'm a YEC or
> something? It's like a pathology: "yeah, well let me tell you about them
> there YECs...." Believe,me, I know as much about fundamentalists as you do,
> or more. I hope I can continue to grow out of that bitterness and learn to
> love even those fundies who messed up parts of my youth and treated me
> unkindly in my middle age. Some of my family members and best friends are
> still fundies, and I love them, or at least I hope I try to.
>
> Obviously it is right and appropriate to be clear about facts when
> discussing facts. But I believe it's possible to do this in an atmosphere
> of loving support -- or if it's not possible that the attempt must be made.
>
>
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:35 PM, D. F. Siemens, Jr. <dfsiemensjr@juno.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Let me venture a guess that the references to Matthew 23 were not
>> applied to your congregation but were probably applied to the liberal clergy
>> on the other side.
>>
>> I was in the audience when the patriarch of the GARBC (don't recall his
>> name) declared, "When God said 'Come out from among them and be ye
>> separate,' he did not say, 'Come out from among them and join the
>> Conservative Baptists.'" I was surprised when I encountered a GARB church
>> that supported the work of Billy Graham. I have had some experience with the
>> Fundamentalists.
>>
>> I was at one time a committed YEC. I had been exposed to Scofield's gap
>> theory but did not believe it. I was forced to revise my position to OEC and
>> then TE by checking the data. Years ago I visited the bristlecone pine grove
>> in California, and have read the YEC view that many years they had two
>> growth rings and the alternative view that, given conditions in the high
>> country, the pines were likely not to produce a growth ring some seasons.
>> There are more growth rings in living and dead pines than there are years
>> back to the calculated date of the universal flood. European tree ring
>> chronologies go back over 10 Ky. Is reporting this sniping?
>> Dave (ASA)
>>
>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:26:01 -0500 David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
>> writes:
>>
>> I've heard plenty of sermons drawn from Matt. 23, none of which had
>> anything to do with neo-Naziism or with the Jewish people at all, but all of
>> which had to do with hypocrisy in the Church. Indeed, in many respects
>> Matt. 23 makes Preston's point, which is that we ought to spend more time
>> critiquing ourselves than we do sniping at others.
>>
>> David W. Opderbeck
>> Associate Professor of Law
>> Seton Hall University Law School
>> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:07 PM, <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Dominican who taught the coourse I took on Matthew in seminary
>>> commented when we got to this chapter, "You probably won't preach on Matthew
>>> 23 very much - unless you're a neo-Nazi.
>>>
>>> Shalom,
>>> George
>>>
>>> ---- "D. F. Siemens wrote:
>>> > Preston,
>>> > I note that you are comparing two groups with whom you meet and this
>>> > list. While I agree that being polite is relevant, I have to note that
>>> > there is a very different feel to face to face communication and the
>>> > semi-anonymity of e-mail and other computer postings. There have been
>>> > recent stories about people posting their nude photos on the Web,
>>> though
>>> > the have been none that I have seen of any of them walking about town.
>>> I
>>> > do recall a number of incidents of streaking, however.
>>> >
>>> > Additionally, I would call your attention to Matthew 23. I know of only
>>> > one set of sermons with that chapter as the text. Out of curiosity, do
>>> > any of the group know of a sermon based on that chapter? Additionally,
>>> > it's been a while since I have heard a sermon explicitly on sin or on
>>> > hell.
>>> > Dave (ASA)
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:58:34 -0600 Preston Garrison <
>>> pngarrison@att.net>
>>> > writes:
>>> > > All,
>>> > >
>>> > > I have been lurking on this list more in recent weeks than I have
>>> > > for
>>> > > several years. As always there are brilliant people discussing deep
>>> > >
>>> > > topics. But there is something else that is consistent. There is a
>>> > > constant current of sarcasm, declarations of war against this group
>>> > >
>>> > > or that, expressions of fear and despair about what is supposedly
>>> > > befalling the church, and declarations from on high of what God
>>> > > thinks about this or that.
>>> > >
>>> > > In the same period I have been meeting with two separate groups of
>>> > > people locally. Both are composed of mixes of believers and atheists
>>> > >
>>> > > and agnostics, with a preponderance of unbelievers. In both of those
>>> > >
>>> > > groups, serious topics are discussed, scientific, political,
>>> > > religious and philosophical, but everyone is treated with mutual
>>> > > respect, there is humor, self-deprecation and even love. Even the
>>> > > servers who bring the coffee are known and time is taken for them by
>>> > >
>>> > > both believers and unbelievers.
>>> > >
>>> > > I recently recommended this list indirectly to a young man who is
>>> > > very intelligent and troubled about theological and scientific
>>> > > issues. I have to say at this point that I think I made a mistake in
>>> > >
>>> > > doing so. If he looks here, he will find much more education and
>>> > > brilliance than in the average church, but too much savagery for him
>>> > >
>>> > > to get much out of the intelligence.
>>> > >
>>> > > I just opened my Bible "randomly" to the following verse:
>>> > >
>>> > > If any man thinks himself religious, but does not bridle his tongue,
>>> > >
>>> > > but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is WORTHLESS. -
>>> > > James 1:26
>>> > >
>>> > > Enough. Stop it. Repent. Consider that that none of us is right
>>> > > about
>>> > > everything. It isn't all of you. It is the same subset over and over
>>> > >
>>> > > and over again. You know who you are. Ask our Lord and the people
>>> > > you
>>> > > are insulting to forgive you and start praying for your intellectual
>>> > >
>>> > > enemies. Don't respond to me. It isn't me you have offended.
>>> > >
>>> > > Preston Garrison
>>> > >
>>> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>>> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > ____________________________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>

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Received on Tue Feb 17 13:36:35 2009