Re: [asa] Fear and Loathing on this list

I don't think anything in Matt. 23 gives anyone the right to bully other
Christians with whom they disagree about debateable things. My Bible
includes Matt. 23, but it also includes a whole bunch of stuff written by a
guy named Paul (and / or his amenuensis or someone else, depending on what
you think about the pastorals) on the subject of how we're supposed to treat
each other when we disagree. The most significant thing Matt. 23 teaches us
in this regard, I think, is that our Lord Jesus has no tolerance for elites
who think it's their job to bludgeon everyone else into right thinking.

David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:39 PM, D. F. Siemens, Jr. <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>wrote:

> I am talking about facts, whether they are comfortable or not. Preston
> was comparing face to face contact with what he sees on the Web. This goes
> beyond comparing apples to oranges to something like apples and nutmegs. I
> recall that the latter were sometimes carved locally rather than imported.
>
> Does your Bible contain Matthew 23, or do you have an expurgated version?
> That chapter is not at all nice. Such denunciation is virtually never
> encountered today. Is this one reason why I keep reading that the behavior
> of the churched and unchurched youth match? Is nondiscrimination the highest
> moral value? Is it wicked for an organization to want to hire only those who
> share its views on faith and morals? Some are trying to make it so.
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:11:42 -0500 David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> writes:
>
> Dave S. -- what the blazes are you talking about? This is a perfect
> example of what Preston is saying, IMHO.
>
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:58 PM, D. F. Siemens, Jr. <
> dfsiemensjr@juno.com> wrote:
>
>> Preston,
>> I note that you are comparing two groups with whom you meet and this
>> list. While I agree that being polite is relevant, I have to note that
>> there is a very different feel to face to face communication and the
>> semi-anonymity of e-mail and other computer postings. There have been
>> recent stories about people posting their nude photos on the Web, though
>> the have been none that I have seen of any of them walking about town. I
>> do recall a number of incidents of streaking, however.
>>
>> Additionally, I would call your attention to Matthew 23. I know of only
>> one set of sermons with that chapter as the text. Out of curiosity, do
>> any of the group know of a sermon based on that chapter? Additionally,
>> it's been a while since I have heard a sermon explicitly on sin or on
>> hell.
>> Dave (ASA)
>>
>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:58:34 -0600 Preston Garrison <pngarrison@att.net>
>> writes:
>> > All,
>> >
>> > I have been lurking on this list more in recent weeks than I have
>> > for
>> > several years. As always there are brilliant people discussing deep
>> >
>> > topics. But there is something else that is consistent. There is a
>> > constant current of sarcasm, declarations of war against this group
>> >
>> > or that, expressions of fear and despair about what is supposedly
>> > befalling the church, and declarations from on high of what God
>> > thinks about this or that.
>> >
>> > In the same period I have been meeting with two separate groups of
>> > people locally. Both are composed of mixes of believers and atheists
>> >
>> > and agnostics, with a preponderance of unbelievers. In both of those
>> >
>> > groups, serious topics are discussed, scientific, political,
>> > religious and philosophical, but everyone is treated with mutual
>> > respect, there is humor, self-deprecation and even love. Even the
>> > servers who bring the coffee are known and time is taken for them by
>> >
>> > both believers and unbelievers.
>> >
>> > I recently recommended this list indirectly to a young man who is
>> > very intelligent and troubled about theological and scientific
>> > issues. I have to say at this point that I think I made a mistake in
>> >
>> > doing so. If he looks here, he will find much more education and
>> > brilliance than in the average church, but too much savagery for him
>> >
>> > to get much out of the intelligence.
>> >
>> > I just opened my Bible "randomly" to the following verse:
>> >
>> > If any man thinks himself religious, but does not bridle his tongue,
>> >
>> > but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is WORTHLESS. -
>> > James 1:26
>> >
>> > Enough. Stop it. Repent. Consider that that none of us is right
>> > about
>> > everything. It isn't all of you. It is the same subset over and over
>> >
>> > and over again. You know who you are. Ask our Lord and the people
>> > you
>> > are insulting to forgive you and start praying for your intellectual
>> >
>> > enemies. Don't respond to me. It isn't me you have offended.
>> >
>> > Preston Garrison
>> >
>> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>> >
>> >
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>
>
>

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Received on Mon Feb 16 18:24:08 2009