RE: [asa] (debate) Fear and Loathing on this list

Hi David, you wrote:

>Of course, faith-"affirming" shouldn't just mean glossing over serious
problems with settled views. But it should mean the freedom to wrestle with
hard questions in the fellowship of other followers of Christ whose primary
motivation is that we would all grow together in Christ-likeness.<

Certainly that would be a motivation. Another would be to equip the saints
to be "wise as serpents," "iron sharpens iron," and all that. Can we gain
new knowledge here that would make us better witnesses, more effective as
emissaries for the cause of Jesus Christ? I attended a local church
because the pastor was doing a series on science. Francis Collins spoke at
their church last year, so they are forward minded. Frankly, it was lame.
Most of us could have done better. But I mean most of us who have spent
time on this list and have been exposed to the accumulated knowledge of
those who have participated here.

On the other hand, throw an idea out here that is cockamamie it will likely
be exposed as cockamamie. The challenge for us who love Jesus is to do it
in a loving way so as to not offend, or put off, or denigrate the person.
Yes, people come here with half-baked ideas and leave when they are exposed.
So what should we do about that? Is the problem that we aren't loving
enough, or is the problem that they don't get the support they thought they
were going to get and leave to seek it elsewhere?

Let me throw out a suggestion (okay, a cockamamie idea). Look at how I
labeled this thread. Why not flag our threads with a short one word
category at the beginning such as (praise), (info), (debate), (prayer
request), (ridicule, I'm kidding), etc., then those who want to enter into
or read about debate subjects, or learn information, or feel uplifted by
inspired prose can search out and explore those threads that cater to his or
her preferences? All we would need is a short established list of labels.

Dick Fischer, GPA president

Genesis Proclaimed Association

"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David Opderbeck
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 10:12 AM
To: Preston Garrison
Cc: ASA list
Subject: Re: [asa] Fear and Loathing on this list

Preston, thank you for having the guts to post this. I admit I often cross
the line between debate and snarkiness, here and elsewhere, and that this is
wrong. And I think you are absolutely right. I enjoy being part of the
ASA. I like strong debate. I've learned a ton by participating on this
list and my views about some things have changed significantly. But ... at
the same time, with some really great exceptions, this has not been a
faith-affirming experience.

Of course, faith-"affirming" shouldn't just mean glossing over serious
problems with settled views. But it should mean the freedom to wrestle with
hard questions in the fellowship of other followers of Christ whose primary
motivation is that we would all grow together in Christ-likeness.

David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Director, Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:58 AM, Preston Garrison <pngarrison@att.net>
wrote:

All,

I have been lurking on this list more in recent weeks than I have for
several years. As always there are brilliant people discussing deep topics.
But there is something else that is consistent. There is a constant current
of sarcasm, declarations of war against this group or that, expressions of
fear and despair about what is supposedly befalling the church, and
declarations from on high of what God thinks about this or that.

In the same period I have been meeting with two separate groups of people
locally. Both are composed of mixes of believers and atheists and agnostics,
with a preponderance of unbelievers. In both of those groups, serious topics
are discussed, scientific, political, religious and philosophical, but
everyone is treated with mutual respect, there is humor, self-deprecation
and even love. Even the servers who bring the coffee are known and time is
taken for them by both believers and unbelievers.

I recently recommended this list indirectly to a young man who is very
intelligent and troubled about theological and scientific issues. I have to
say at this point that I think I made a mistake in doing so. If he looks
here, he will find much more education and brilliance than in the average
church, but too much savagery for him to get much out of the intelligence.

I just opened my Bible "randomly" to the following verse:

If any man thinks himself religious, but does not bridle his tongue, but
deceives his own heart, this man's religion is WORTHLESS. - James 1:26

Enough. Stop it. Repent. Consider that that none of us is right about
everything. It isn't all of you. It is the same subset over and over and
over again. You know who you are. Ask our Lord and the people you are
insulting to forgive you and start praying for your intellectual enemies.
Don't respond to me. It isn't me you have offended.

Preston Garrison

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Received on Mon Feb 16 13:46:29 2009