Re: [asa] Two questions... (bottlenecking)

Hi Dick,

you wrote:

 Adapa/Adamu is the lone exception and yet this legend had such
importance it was copied into various Semitic languages on different branches
of Noah’s family tree! 

 Please explain -- I only see one branch in the Bible.  Are you referring to the SKL?

Phil

-----Original Message-----

From: Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net>

To: philtill@aol.com

Cc: ASA <asa@calvin.edu>

Sent: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:39 pm

Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions... (bottlenecking)

Hi Phil:

As to Adam being a real flesh and blood
human being, the bloodline from Adam to the twelve tribes was common knowledge. 
From the twelve tribes, the Jews recorded the births of their children in the
temple in Jerusalem simply because it was important for them to know who belonged to which
tribe.  This was especially important for choosing marriage partners.  Only we
Christians could imagine untold scores of missing generations.  To them it
would be and still today is unthinkable.  Copying mistakes – sure, an occasional
inadvertent deletion, that’s to be expected.  But simply as a20device to
drive Adam back into antiquity tens of thousands of years?  You gotta be kidding.

Human nature doesn’t seem to change
much over the eons.  I believe we can make observations about h
uman nature as
we see it today and project it back to determine what is likely to have happened. 
I had lunch with an anthropologist who subscribes to the theory based upon DNA evidence that there was
no gene flow between Neanderthals and Homo
sapiens whereas I think it is likely.  At the outset is likely that Homo sapiens pushed Neanderthals into
extinction as they have done with many other lesser creatures that are no
longer with us today.  In warfare (something I do know a little about), normally
in ancient days the men would gird up for an assault on remote villages or
cities occupied by other races, nationalities, colors, or in this case another
species, or sub species.  If the marauders are success
ful they dispatch the men
of the other villages and are left with the women and children.  What do you
think plundering men would do with an assortment of young women newly available? 
It doesn’t a lot of imagination to see that the polite phrase “gene
flow” would result.  Why did 500,000 Spanish men immigrate to South America beginning with the
Conquistadors?  Gold and booty.

Now, go to any supermarket and look at
the front pages of the magazines on the racks.  What do you see?  Pictures of
movie stars and rock stars, and lurid stories about them on the inside which
you can read if only you buy those scandal rags and take them home.  We have a
fascination about famous, glamorous people.  That results
 in stories which
these stars sometimes have to vehemently deny.  Racy stories about famous
people sells copy and makes money for all those in the magazine industry who
have no compunction with stretching the truth or making stuff up if necessary. =0
ANow apply what we know to the question at hand.  The legends of Dumuzi (Hebrew
Tammuz) and Gilgamesh, are cases in point.  Both men are on the Sumerian King
List.  Both lived fabulous lives according to the legends about them.  These
stories were invented and copied by scribes who sold their work and profited
from the enterprise.

This brings us to Adam, Adapa/Adamu.  Just
as in the supermarket tabloids, gods, goddesses, kings and the occasional queen
got loads of press in Sumer and Akkad.  Adapa/Adamu is the lone exception and yet this legend had such
importance it was copied into various Semitic languages on different branches
of Noah’s family tree!  That is significant.  The commonalities between
the legend and the man Adam are striking.  So I would co
nclude that in all
likelihood there was such a man from whom the Jews descended.  The graveyards of
Mesopotamia were filled with his namesakes.  The legend arose about him as he
was a “rock star,” known to everybody and the cuneiform clay tablets
were an easy sale.  That makes more sense to me than the idea that “Adam
is a symbolic character in a literary/theological account.”  Symbolic
characters
 don’t have flesh and blood offspring.

Dick Fischer, GPA president

Genesis Proclaimed Association

"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science
and History"

www.genesisproclaimed.org

-----Original Message-----

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf
Of philtill@aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009
8:54 PM

To: dickfischer@verizon.net;
asa@calvin.edu

Subject: Re: [asa] Two
questions... (bottlenecking)

Hi Dick, my answers are interspersed below.
=0
A

>>
If Adam lived at Eridu and Eridu was dated by archaeologist at 4800 BC, and if
the flood was at 2900 BC that puts 1900 years between covered by ten
generations.  You can do that math.  <<

I agree there is a literary connection between the Adam of
the Bible and the Adapa/Adamu of the Mesopotamian literature, but only a
literary connection.  I don't agree that the "Adam" of the
Hebrew was an individual identical to the (presumably) historical Adapa/Adamu
that inspired the Mesopotamian myths.  Therefore the Seth geneology that
begins with Adam is not constrained to begin at the date of Eridu.  I
believe Adam is a symbolic character in a literary/theological account, and he
represents the origin of all humanity (not just the Jews).  When the
writer o
f Genesis 2-3 chose the name to give this myth
ological character, he
undoubtedly would have given him the name that was famously handed down within
Mesopotamian literature -- Ada pa/Adamu.  That's the way the myth genre
works.  It builds on prior myths in order to poignantly make its intended
statements.  This part of Genesis follows (as literature) the norms of
that genre (although it is inspired and tells the theological truth).  So
there are definitely connections to Mesopotamian myth, but I don't believe they
are always literal history.

>>
Any errors in numerology would foul that up.  If the flood was at 2900 BC
and Abraham can be dated around 2000 BC, that puts 900 years between and 90
years between generations.  Long life required.<<

There is a lot of uncertainty in the
dating of both Abraham and the Flood.  I agree that the Flood at Shurrupak
is probably the one that inspired (more than the other majo
r floods) the flood
myths of Mesopotamia, and therefore it is the one that the Biblic al writer was
interpreting theologically in light of the Abrahamic faith.  But that does
not give us enough certainty in the number of years to overthrow what we know
from biology and the clear statistics of the Patriarch ages and SKL.  The
OT chronologies are ALL problematic, and this probably reflects many changes of
numbering and dating systems dow
n through the years.

>>
The names for Noah are Ziusudra in Sumerian and Utnapishtim in Akkadian, both
translate about the same: “he who found long life.”  The
reason Gilgamesh sought him out was because it was thought he had the secret of
eternal life.  <<

But this is irrelevant as to whether the
historical flood hero lived a literal 600 years and then died, because in the
Mesopotamian myths he lived eternally.  In the Bible
 he actually died far
earlier than any of his20anscestors, if the dates were literal.  Thus, he
is not "one who found long life" in that context.  The
discrepancy between the Mesopotamian accounts and the biblical is that in the
former he had been fully mythologized into a Santa Clause-like figure. 
Consider the similarities:  He lived forever with his wife (Mrs. Clause),
in a remote location (North Pole) that could only be reached by a special
vehicle (sleigh) piloted by magical creatures (flying reindeer).  All
these elements are in the Mesopotamian myth of Ziusudra and have no basis in
historical fact.  Also, the cultural importance of the Flood accounts in
Mesopotamia was huge (and so is the Christmas story with Santa, today). 
And both Ziusudra and Santa were originally real people, but became mythologized
due to the cultural importance they took on until at last the inflated
mythological versions bore no
resemblance to the real persons.  In both
cases, this took place over a thousand or so years.  No wonder the writer
of Genesis wanted to re-interpret the Flood and set it straight,
theologically!  Conclusion:  the existence of a Santa Clause-like
figure in Mesopotamian myths is is no evidence that people actually lived long
ages.

>> In Jubilees, all the sons and grandsons
and their families remained with Noah until he died then they departed. 
That means Noah was contemporary with at least three more generations after the
flood.<<

Not unlike some people who live relatively long lives today
-- but let's also remember that Jubilees is not in the canon of Scripture and
may have contained inflated, mythological material.

>>
The whole story of Abraham’s life was how he was 75 years old before he
left Mesopotamia and thought to be too old to have children so Sarah convinces
him to knock up an Egyptian lady, then years later he has Isaac, then blah,
blah, blah, an d he dies at 175.  The story makes no sense if he lived to
only 40 or 50 years which was normal for per
sons who lived during that time
frame.<<

Yes, but there is a huge difference between Abraham's age
versus 300 or 500 or 900; the biological differences=2
0are huge.  But
anyhow, I am also keeping in the back of my head that maybe these dates for
Abraham are also mis-translated, and that Paul in referring to these ages had
to use the figures available in the 1st century translations otherwise his
words have been unintelligible to his audience.  So I wonder whether God's
method of inspiring Paul guaranteed the historical accuracy of the figures or
just the accuracy of Paul's citation of the MSS extant in his day.  Paul's
argument does not really require the dates to be exact, and 175 is still of the
order of magnitude of an ordinary life (unlike the Patriarch ages).  Since
Abraham and Sarah never had children in the first 20, 30, 40, etc., years of
their marriage, they probably had already drawn conclusions about the
"deadness" of Sarah's womb and of Abraham's body, long before their
ages became unusual.  To be intell ectually honest, I am considering this
possibility and leaving it as an undecided point that God might one day
explain.  But if Abraham
did live to literally 175 years of age, then
praise God for blessing Abraham!  In any case, it does not explain nor
therefore overthrow all the strong numerical evidence that the Patriarch ages
were mistranslations.

>>
Josephus recorded: “Now Moses says that this flood began on the
twenty-seventh day of the forementioned month; and was two thousand two hundred
and fifty-six years from Adam the first man; and th
e time is written down in
our sacred books, those who then lived having noted down, with great accuracy,
both the births and deaths of illustrious men.”  Once again ten
generation divided into 2,256 requires long life spans.<<

< span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: black;">This can't possibly be of any consequence, since
Josephus was a product of the 1st century AD and was working with the MSS as
they existed in his day.  The canonization of20the mis-translated and
edited version of the Scriptures probably occurred several 100's of years
before Josephus to explain the branching and full acceptance of the three
manuscript families that existed by his time.

>>
Again Josephus: “I am borne out in what I have said by all those that
have written antiquities, both among the Greeks and Barbarians: for Manetho,
who wrote the Egyptian history, and Berosus, who compiled the Chaldean, and
Mochus and Hestiæus and Hieronymyus the Egyptian, who compiled the Phoenician
history, agree to what I here say.  And Hesiod, Hecatæus, Hellanicus and
Acusilaus, and beside them, Ephorus and Nicolaus, relate that the ancients
lived a thousand years.” <<

None of these voices
were early enough to give anywhere near a trustworthy witness.  The basic
problem is
 that they were all handling20very old, very ill-understood
myths.  The ones who may have had access to the Bible or to rumors derived
from a distance from those who had the Bible were likewise dealing with numbers
that could no longer be understood because the original number system was long
extinct.

In particular:

Hesoid lived between 1200 and 700 BC,
making him at least 1.7 millennia after the Shurrupak flood and probably much
later.  Hestiaeus
and Ephorus lived in the 300's BC, about 2.5
millenia after the flood.  Manethro and Berossus li ved in the 300's to
200's BC, about 2.5 millenia after the flood.  Moschus lived ca. 150
BC.  I can't find a Hieronymus who was an Egyptian (only one from Cardia
who20was indeed an historian, 354-250 BC).  But any Hieronymus "the Egyptian"
would likewise have been in the Hellenistic period or later because his name is
Greek.  Heallanicus lived a bit
earlier in the 400's, but was and is considered unreliable and to have used
poor methods. Acusilaus lived even earlier in the 500's, but Wikipedia has this
to say of him:

"Three books of his genealogies are
quoted, which were for the most part only a translation of Hesiod into prose. Acusilaus
claimed to have taken some of his information from bronze tablets discovered in
his garden which were inscribed
with information, a source looked upon with
suspicion by some modern commentators."

And he is still a good 1.4 millennia after the flood! 
The only Nocolaus I can find was contemporary with Josephus and maybe too late
to be the one he was citing.

Of these, none are anywhere near the age of the Flood. 
Hesiod is far older than the rest, but he wasn't dealing with Semitic legends;
he was dealing with purely Greek mythologies.  From the little I read of
Hesiod I don't recall anybody living 1000's of years, but it's not unbelievable
that a Greek poet would put something like that into his poetry.  He
became an authority to the subsequent Greeks so if he put something like that
in one of his songs then no doubt it was repeated forever in the Greek
world.  None of this tells us anything reliable enough to overthrow
biology or the statistical/numerical evidence that the ages are
mistranslations.

Phil

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Received on Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:59:19 -0500