The Comforter (was Re: [asa] Two questions...)

Hi Folks,

The Comforter/Paraclete is a particularly Johannine way of referring to the Holy Spirit and it perhaps then important to note that John's theology of the Spirit is very well developed. I think three things said by John are particularly relevant;

First, that the Spirit "blows where he will" (Jn 3:5-8) such that I think it's probably futile to try to precisely delineate the means by which the Spirit operates. Through Scripture is obviously one mode - but two caveats: first, one can read Scripture till the cows come home and not encounter the Spirit (Jn 5:39), Second, the Spirit is capable of using other modes.

Personally, I have a suspicion that much of our problem with the value of natural theology and philosophy boils down to whether, in our own experience, God's Spirit has chosen to speak to us as individuals through these modes or not. The extent to which he has will largely determine the extent to which we see them as valid channels of the Spirit's revelatory disclosure.

Second, the Paraclete does not teach on his own authority (Jn 16:13-15) - which I take to mean that the Spirit's teaching is "under authority" in precisely the same way as that of the Son (cf. Jn 12:49) content of the Spirit's witness should always accord with a responsible exegesis of Scripture.

Third, it's largely agreed that in John's Gospel the Spirit was given before the day of Pentecost (Jn 20:22) - which confuses the chronology just a tad!

Ultimately, I hold the view that the revelatory action of the Holy Spirit is pretty broad and can be loosely regarded as primarily experiential. The propositional content of Christian faith, on the other hand, is contained in Scripture and, to a lesser extent, the creeds and theological traditions of the church. What is required is a combination of Word and Spirit such that one's faith is informed by the Word (either directly or indirectly) and enlivened by the Spirit. Absent one of these two and one ends up with either a dull biblical orthodoxy or unconstrained religious enthusiasm. Neither is the least desirable.

Blessings,
Murray

John Walley wrote:
> I don't believe He comes solely through the scriptures if that is what your asking. In fact the early church would have been Comfort-less for a lot of the first century if that was the case.
>
> Although I am not a theologian I think it is fairly well established that the Comforter debuted at Pentecost so the answer to your question would be via a reltionship with the Holy Spirit.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>
> --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Bill Powers <wjp@swcp.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Bill Powers <wjp@swcp.com>
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions...
>> To: "John Walley" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "Douglas Hayworth" <haythere.doug@gmail.com>, D.F.Siemens@ame8.swcp.com, "Jr." <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>, mrb22667@kansas.net, asa@calvin.edu
>> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 4:36 PM
>> John:
>>
>> Through what means does the Comforter come?
>>
>> bill
>>
>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, John
>> Walley wrote:
>>
>>> Scripture is not all we got. In fact, if you read and
>> believed the scriptures, you would know that we also have
>> the Comforter, whose job it is to lead us into all truth.
>>> I contend the manifestation of this ministry of the
>> Comforter leading us into truth is to prompt us to use our
>> God given rational faculties to synthesize what He reveals
>> to us from nature, including science.
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 2/10/09, wjp <wjp@swcp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: wjp <wjp@swcp.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions...
>>>> To: "Douglas Hayworth"
>> <haythere.doug@gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: D.F.Siemens@ame8.swcp.com,
>> "Jr.""" <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>,
>> mrb22667@kansas.net, asa@calvin.edu
>>>> Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 9:08 PM
>>>> Doug:
>>>>
>>>> I think this non-concordist YEC position is
>> closest to
>>>> mine.
>>>> I have always been uncomfortable with Ross'
>> (RTB)
>>>> position, sort
>>>> of like a science-groupie. And although most of
>> my
>>>> evangelical friends are close to a concordist YEC
>> position,
>>>> I have
>>>> always attempted to point out the weakness, and
>> sometimes
>>>> naivete, of
>>>> some of their arguments. It should be noted,
>> however, that
>>>> some who
>>>> are very serious about this task are significantly
>>>> sophisticated
>>>> (e.g., John Baumgardner).
>>>>
>>>> However, my concerns have always been more
>> theological
>>>> (I'm not wholly
>>>> comfortable with that word), let's say
>> Christological,
>>>> than with any
>>>> form of concordism.
>>>>
>>>> I am persuaded that Christian faith must always
>> remain in
>>>> tension with
>>>> the world. Hence, any fully successful concordism
>> might
>>>> represent an
>>>> attempt to tear down the wall of faith. On the
>> other hand,
>>>> the occurrence
>>>> of certain historical events are necessary (but
>> not
>>>> sufficient) for
>>>> Christian faith, as such it is evidential, and
>> subject to
>>>> attack on those
>>>> grounds. For this reason I am likewise
>> uncomfortable with
>>>> any form of
>>>> Bultmannian groundless Christianity. Scripture is
>> all
>>>> we've got.
>>>>
>>>> Like most practitioners of science, I began as a
>> realist.
>>>> In the twenty or
>>>> so years that I've been studying the
>> philosophy of
>>>> science, I have increasingly
>>>> adopted the "received" view, the
>> anti-realist or
>>>> instrumentalist views of
>>>> the vast majority of philosophers, finding
>> Heidegger's
>>>> the most complex, and
>>>> perhaps compelling.
>>>>
>>>> For this reason my non-concordist YEC position is
>> not
>>>> troubling so much for me.
>>>> What troubles me is how it troubles others, and
>> how in a
>>>> day where science has
>>>> replaced philosophy and theology as the arbiters
>> of what is
>>>> reasonable and true,
>>>> they shall faire.
>>>>
>>>> bill powers
>>>> White, SD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:09:24 -0600, Douglas
>> Hayworth
>>>> <haythere.doug@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 8:40 PM, D. F. Siemens,
>> Jr.
>>>> <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> were. They also ignore the fact that the moon
>> is a
>>>> light as much as the
>>>>>> sun is, so it cannot merely reflect
>> sunlight. The
>>>> change in meaning is
>>>>> so
>>>>>> familiar that Hayworth does not recognize
>> it as a
>>>> change.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you've understood exactly the
>> opposite of
>>>> what I intended to
>>>>> convey. You are describing concordist versions
>> of YEC
>>>> (i.e., examples
>>>>> of trying to make the biblical descriptions
>> make sense
>>>>> scientifically). What I said was that
>> straightforward
>>>> YECs (by which I
>>>>> meant those unadulterated YECs who simply
>> believe in
>>>> 6-day creation on
>>>>> biblical grounds only, and don't care that
>> the
>>>> scientific evidence
>>>>> doesn't support it -- perhaps appealing to
>> the
>>>> appearance of age) are
>>>>> internally consistent theologically. I realize
>> that
>>>> the vast majority
>>>>> of passionate YECs are in fact extremely
>> concordist,
>>>> too. Sorry if
>>>>> that distinction was not clear in my original
>> comment.
>>>> My point was
>>>>> that it is concordism that is the problem (not
>>>> specifically whether it
>>>>> is of an OEC or YEC variety). There is a
>> version of
>>>> YEC that doesn't
>>>>> require concordism (i.e., appearance of age
>> YEC), but
>>>> there is not to
>>>>> my knowledge any version of OEC that does not
>> depend
>>>> heavily on
>>>>> concordism.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doug
>>>>>
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>>>> the message.
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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Received on Wed Feb 11 20:34:44 2009