RE: [asa] Two questions...

OK, I am not sure why my posts sometimes do not go thru. The last one has a
jpeg image - I will just provide a link to that image (actually version 2
now).

http://www.rtbshreveport.net/Mans-Timeline-v2.jpg

--
I just spent the past several hours (last night and this AM) compiling this
from various sources. I do apologize if some dates are off a bit - various
sources differ. There seems to be a broad range of time that may be
considered "Mesolithic" - but that's another story. 
 
Anyway, Genesis 4-6 is where I am looking. The problem I see is Genesis
4:20-22. This verse puts Tubal-Cain before Noah.and he (or perhaps his
descendants) forged tools of bronze and iron. Now that puts us way the heck
up there.earliest I can put that is 6.5 KBC for iron metallurgy (and that's
probably debatable). And that's before the flood, and Adam was still alive.
Or the ancient Jews were putting things out of order again (Gen 1 vs. Gen
2), but that's still about a 33 KBC breadth of time! 
 
(KBC - thousands of years before Christ)
 
So:
Earliest postulated iron metallurgy: 6.5 KBC, Tubal-Cain: 37-39 KBC.
Bronze Age 3 KBC, Iron Age 1.1 KBC, Tubal-Cain: 37-39 KBC.
Earliest known domesticated sheep: 11 KBC, Abel: ~39.5 KBC.
Earliest known grain gathering: 17 KBC, Cain: ~39.5 KBC.
Earliest large settlements: 6 KBC, Cain building a "city": ~39.5 KBC.
Earliest known musical instruments: 30 KBC, descendants of Jubal: ~39 KBC.
(earliest known *stringed* musical instruments: 2.6 KBC)
 
So, I have to admit it.there are some issues there. But Dick, the biggest
problem I see is Tubal-Cain and bronze/iron tools - why didn't you point
that out instead of tents, musical instruments, etc?  
 
So, I am still searching for answers to this.
 
JP
--
 
From: Dick Fischer [mailto:dickfischer@verizon.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:44 AM
To: 'James Patterson'
Cc: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions...
 
Hi James:
 
I readily admit it would be nice to have an apologetic that met all of our
traditional beliefs.  The difficulty here is that a mistake was made early
on, it has perpetuated, and it has become enshrined.  And I can't extract
the entire Christian religion all by myself.  It's kind of like putting on
your shoes before your socks.  No matter how hard you try the shoes have got
to come off before you can put your socks on.
 
As it pertains to Genesis, the early church received an abbreviated
narrative of Jewish history and intepreted it as human history.  What Moses
passed down to the children of Israel was where they came from.  Moses had
no idea where the other indigenous human populations came from, they were
just here.  Looking over the shoulders of the Jews at their book of
beginnings first century Christians got it into their heads that it was the
history of the beginning of the entire human race.  Those are the shoes that
have to come off.  Jewish history as important as it is to our Christian
theology is simply not the history of our species.
 
The good news is that we do have the history of the ancient Near East which
has surfaced only in the last 160 years and it corroborates Genesis.
Genesis 2-11 does have historical integrity and that could go a long way
toward removing a roadblock that has been an impediment to our evangelistic
efforts.  But this is only true if we adopt it as a better, more accurate
way of interpreting the Genesis narrative.  Frankly, I could use a little
help.
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of James Patterson
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:27 AM
To: 'Dick Fischer'; 'ASA'
Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions...
 
Good points - I'm going to get more in-depths comments on this and thus must
reply later. JP
 
From: Dick Fischer [mailto:dickfischer@verizon.net] 
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:24 PM
To: 'James Patterson'
Cc: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions...
 
Hi James:
 
There are arguments I could give, the flood is one.  Why does anyone suggest
there are patriarchs missing out of the Genesis genealogies?  There is only
one reason for that - to drive the flood back into a timeframe where it
might be possible that the ark passengers could commence the entire human
race.  And the only reason for that is to accommodate our mistaken belief
that Adam was the biological head of all Homo sapiens.
 
There is certainly nothing in Scripture that gives us any hint that the
flood was before the Neolithic Period with the mention of farming,
livestock, tents, stringed musical instruments, and implements of bronze and
iron before the flood.  How would you count for that?  Also, the father son
descriptions from Adam to Abraham spell out years between patriarchs and age
at death in tedious detail.
 
Plus, what does the idea of scores of deleted generations do for Bible
credibility?  You can believe in a created Adam with no natural parents, God
strolling in the garden, talking snakes, a mankind obliterating flood, but a
simple narrative about fathers and sons is completely wrong?  James!  It
reminds me of the old Viet Nam adage: "In order to save the village we had
to destroy the village."
 
You don't have to read my book although I think you would benefit.  Read
David Rohl's Legend:
<http://www.amazon.com/Legend-Civilisation-David-M-Rohl/dp/009979991X/ref=sr
_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234197318&sr=1-1>  The Genesis of Civilisation, or
read Carol Ann Hills articles in PSCF, "The Garden of Eden: A Modern
Landscape" and "A Time and a Place for Noah."
 
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2000/PSCF3-00Hill.html
 
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF3-01Hill.html
 
Robert Best wrote, Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic, and I mentioned before
Davis Young's book, The Biblical Flood.
 
We all did independent research.  And we all agree on a 2900 BC date for
Noah's flood.  Do we agree on everything?  No.  Rohl places the garden at
the city of Tabriz in northwestern Iran where I run with Babylonian
tradition that puts it near Eridu, modern Abu Sharein in southern Iraq.
Carol Hill thinks the patriarchs lived normal life spans with the biblical
numbers inflated by an antiquated numbering system, whereas I stick with the
published numbers in the Septuagint.  And Best thinks Noah was a Sumerian
whereas we all know we was Akkadian.  Mercy.  Meanwhile, Ross and Rana who
did no historical research are the odd ones out.  Way out!
 
As concerns the dating of the flood deposits, Wooley found two deposits at
Ur but got excited about the thickest at nearly 10 feet.  The earlier,
thicker layer he dated at 3800 BC and the higher, thinner layer he put at
2750 BC.  Mallowen dated the deposit at Nineveh at 3500 BC.  The central
cities along the Euphrates: Kish, Shuruppak, Lagash, and Erech all were
dated at 2900 BC.  In perspective Nineveh was not discovered by Semites
until after the flood by Asshur (Gen. 10:11).
 
Nineveh was a pre-flood city with indigenous populations unrelated to the
Semites at 3500 BC, and Ur was a Sumerian city without Semitic inhabitants
at the early date.  So in essence all the dates of the flood layers fit the
scenario that the target of the flood was the sinful Adamite/Akkadian
population.  The Sumerians were collateral damage, the rest of the world
untouched.
 
In essence, all flood layers, epic Mesopotamian flood tales, the Genesis
flood narrative, the Sumerian king list, and genealogies (in the Septuagint)
coalesce around the 2900 BC date.  All of which you would have to discredit
completely in order to shift the flood thousands of miles and thousands of
years to fit your Paleolithic flood hypothesis that incidentally has not one
shred of supporting evidence in its favor.
 
One more thing about the "missing patriarchs" idea, another "God of the
gaps" argument.  Where can you shovel in all those MIAs?  It can't be
between Noah and his three sons, they all rode in the same boat.  Noah
curses his grandson, declaring "Canaan shall be his (Shem's) servant" (.Gen
9:27).  So there is no place for a massive genealogy gap between Noah and at
least this grandson.  And the Canaanite city of Ebla was excavated and dated
to ca. 3000 BC.  Why was the city dated earlier than the flood?  Because the
Canaanites just like the Assyrians pounced upon and took over a pre-existing
city.
 
If Noah was contemporary with his grandson, Canaan, wouldn't it seem likely
that he would also be fairly contemporary with Nimrod, his great grandson
through Ham?  His kingdom comprised Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the
land of Shinar (Sumer).  Three of these cities named have been discovered,
excavated and dated.  The oldest city, Erech, was dated at 4200 BC.
 
All the grandsons and great grandsons of Noah have been located with varying
degrees of certainty in various parts of the Near East except for Japheth's
brood who headed west.  There is no trace of any of these nations dated
earlier than 3000 BC.  In short, the only missing patriarch is Canain who is
between Arphaxad and Shelah in the Septuagint, and also mentioned in
Jubliees, but was unfortunately deleted from the Masoretic text.
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of James Patterson
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:33 AM
To: 'ASA'
Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions...
 
Dick,
 
Your arguments rest on the dating of the flood. The question is, which
flood? I believe that there have been several large alluvial flood deposits
found in the region. Are you sure all these accounts that you reference
refer to the same flood? And if so, are you sure this is *the* flood?
Absolutely sure? Sure enough to change your entire view of the relationship
of God to man, and original sin?
 
Genesis was not written (as I am sure you know) at the time that it
happened. It is an account transcribed we believe by Moses, inspired by God,
about the past. Historical accounts written about the past in Sumerian or
other texts would also be about the past - but one thing I *do* know is that
they were not inspired by God. The OT does have some genealogies that are
problematic - we don't really know how many generations are left out in
places, or the life spans of those left out. 
 
When Noah's flood happened isn't clear. RTB is not a stickler for the dates:
10K to 100K years is as narrow as it gets. The latter puts it before the Out
of Africa spreading of all of man to every corner of the globe. 
 
---
 
David,
 
At ~40 kya we appear to have the "Cultural Explosion". While it's true that
the fossil evidence puts man-shaped fossils on the earth 100 kya, that
cultural explosion is a distinct point in time that man changed. Whether or
not there were prehominids about is irrelevant - they died out. Neanderthals
included. We know man came out of Africa, and some data points to east
Africa, and NE Africa is (who woulda thunk it) right there next to
Mesopotamia. Two people could have produced a LOT of people within just 1000
years, especially given longer life spans. 
 
---
 
Once again, you are looking at God's word through a naturalistic worldview
filter. If you want to take out original sin, God will let you.that's free
will. It's your choice. There is always a way to rationalize whatever you
want to do, and the data will fit whatever hole you want to push it in, if
you push long enough and hard enough. I choose to view the world through a
worldview that includes God, and original sin - and that means Adam.
 
JP
 
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 10:58 AM
To: 'James Patterson'
Cc: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions...
 
Hi James:
 
There is one likely scenario, and unfortunately, all your "supposing"
doesn't line up with historical evidence. There is a "bottleneck" for the
Jews due to the 2900 BC flood described variously in Genesis, Jubilees,
Josephus, Atrahasis, Ziusudra, Berossus, and the eleventh tablet of
Gilgamesh. Commonalities in all versions make it extremely difficult
(impossible) to push this event back in time to accommodate any attempts to
line up the Line of Promise with the origin of Homo sapiens.
 
According to Genesis, the pre-flood patriarchs began in southern
Mesopotamia.  According to paleo anthropologists, hominids began in Africa.
The Genesis patriarchs number only ten before the 2900 BC flood.  So push
them out to 7000 years at most and that neatly coincides with the arrival of
the Semitic Akkadians in that region.  Isn't it funny how that all works out
when you just read Genesis and a little history of the ancient Near East?
 
I do agree with you that it would be nice to have all the other hominids die
out to allow us all to be related to Adam and Eve and Noah.  A glance at a
map of the world at about 10,000 BC with human populations in nearly every
corner of the globe precludes that.
 
So, here's what happened.  Humans split from apes about 6 million years ago.
They developed mentally and spread over the globe.  At a point in time of
Gods choosing they were to be made aware of God through the one created in
his image - Adam.  It was through Adam that all men in time were to be
introduced to a God who expected them to be obedient and be accountable.
 
Adam messed up.  The entire covenant race became corrupted partly through
contact with the polytheistic Sumerians.  When idol worship and false gods
became acceptable to the Adamic population who resided entirely in southern
Mesopotamia, God sent a flood to terminate them and start anew with Noah's
three sons.  The Sumerians who lived a little further east were decimated by
the flood but survived.  We know that because they had a list of pre-flood
kings and a post-flood civilization that lasted almost 1,000 years
afterwards.  All the rest of the world's population was virtually unaffected
by the flood which included every race known to us today.
 
So, how much human history have you read, James?  I can recommend over 100
books to get you started, and another 400 after that.  I don't know how much
you can get accomplished by March 5th, so you might just read my book,
Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham and The Biblical Flood by Davis
Young.
 
Oh, and TE is entirely compatible.
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org
 
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