RE: [asa] Two questions...

Dick,

Your arguments rest on the dating of the flood. The question is, which
flood? I believe that there have been several large alluvial flood deposits
found in the region. Are you sure all these accounts that you reference
refer to the same flood? And if so, are you sure this is *the* flood?
Absolutely sure? Sure enough to change your entire view of the relationship
of God to man, and original sin?

Genesis was not written (as I am sure you know) at the time that it
happened. It is an account transcribed we believe by Moses, inspired by God,
about the past. Historical accounts written about the past in Sumerian or
other texts would also be about the past - but one thing I *do* know is that
they were not inspired by God. The OT does have some genealogies that are
problematic - we don't really know how many generations are left out in
places, or the life spans of those left out.

When Noah's flood happened isn't clear. RTB is not a stickler for the dates:
10K to 100K years is as narrow as it gets. The latter puts it before the Out
of Africa spreading of all of man to every corner of the globe.

---
 
David,
 
At ~40 kya we appear to have the "Cultural Explosion". While it's true that
the fossil evidence puts man-shaped fossils on the earth 100 kya, that
cultural explosion is a distinct point in time that man changed. Whether or
not there were prehominids about is irrelevant - they died out. Neanderthals
included. We know man came out of Africa, and some data points to east
Africa, and NE Africa is (who woulda thunk it) right there next to
Mesopotamia. Two people could have produced a LOT of people within just 1000
years, especially given longer life spans. 
 
---
 
Once again, you are looking at God's word through a naturalistic worldview
filter. If you want to take out original sin, God will let you.that's free
will. It's your choice. There is always a way to rationalize whatever you
want to do, and the data will fit whatever hole you want to push it in, if
you push long enough and hard enough. I choose to view the world through a
worldview that includes God, and original sin - and that means Adam.
 
JP
 
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 10:58 AM
To: 'James Patterson'
Cc: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions...
 
Hi James:
 
There is one likely scenario, and unfortunately, all your "supposing"
doesn't line up with historical evidence. There is a "bottleneck" for the
Jews due to the 2900 BC flood described variously in Genesis, Jubilees,
Josephus, Atrahasis, Ziusudra, Berossus, and the eleventh tablet of
Gilgamesh. Commonalities in all versions make it extremely difficult
(impossible) to push this event back in time to accommodate any attempts to
line up the Line of Promise with the origin of Homo sapiens.
 
According to Genesis, the pre-flood patriarchs began in southern
Mesopotamia.  According to paleo anthropologists, hominids began in Africa.
The Genesis patriarchs number only ten before the 2900 BC flood.  So push
them out to 7000 years at most and that neatly coincides with the arrival of
the Semitic Akkadians in that region.  Isn't it funny how that all works out
when you just read Genesis and a little history of the ancient Near East?
 
I do agree with you that it would be nice to have all the other hominids die
out to allow us all to be related to Adam and Eve and Noah.  A glance at a
map of the world at about 10,000 BC with human populations in nearly every
corner of the globe precludes that.
 
So, here's what happened.  Humans split from apes about 6 million years ago.
They developed mentally and spread over the globe.  At a point in time of
Gods choosing they were to be made aware of God through the one created in
his image - Adam.  It was through Adam that all men in time were to be
introduced to a God who expected them to be obedient and be accountable.
 
Adam messed up.  The entire covenant race became corrupted partly through
contact with the polytheistic Sumerians.  When idol worship and false gods
became acceptable to the Adamic population who resided entirely in southern
Mesopotamia, God sent a flood to terminate them and start anew with Noah's
three sons.  The Sumerians who lived a little further east were decimated by
the flood but survived.  We know that because they had a list of pre-flood
kings and a post-flood civilization that lasted almost 1,000 years
afterwards.  All the rest of the world's population was virtually unaffected
by the flood which included every race known to us today.
 
So, how much human history have you read, James?  I can recommend over 100
books to get you started, and another 400 after that.  I don't know how much
you can get accomplished by March 5th, so you might just read my book,
Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham and The Biblical Flood by Davis
Young.
 
Oh, and TE is entirely compatible.
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of James Patterson
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 7:31 AM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions...
 
> Right off the bat, TE forces you to pretty much jettison inerrancy, 
> special creation of man, a literal Adam being the progenitor of all 
> humanity and original sin to name a few. My friend who is an evangelical 
> seminary professor told me in a discussion about this that I have 
> already denied 95% of orthodox Christianity just by denying these
doctines. 
 
Which is why TE (as it is currently and commonly expressed) is not and will
not work. 
 
RTB does not completely deny evolutionary processes. I probably shouldn't be
talking about this since Bob wants us all to refrain until the
teleconference (March 5th, by the way) so please don't rat on me! J
 
TE does not *have* to deny special creation of man.a literal Adam begin the
progenitor of all. I can easily see pro-man's genome being worked on by Bob
Russell's Objective Special Providence (OSP) quantum fiddling by God to
generate Adam (and Eve - still not sure about the whole rib story). Even if
there were other hominids about - they could/would have died out. The
genetic evidence points back to a major bottleneck, which *could* have been
an n of 2. The general location of that bottleneck fits. How far back in
time is not a huge issue - RTB admits that this window is large, but prefers
earlier.
 
The original sin issue then becomes a non-issue. This is quite important
though - since the Bible fits together quite well as a whole, is integrated,
and just works, it's hard to justify Jesus death on the cross without sin,
don't you think?
 
Now, back to OSP. It seems to me that this mechanism in the context of
selection pressures would work quite well. I appreciate the discussion in
Miller's Perspectives about whether God is involved via OSP or via ordinary
providence at all stages. I believe it would be impossible to tell - that's
the whole point isn't it? While you could observe what happens as a result
(where there are records left to observe), the degree of God's involvement
is transparent. One could *believe* that long periods of stasis punctuated
with periods of rapid change are a natural function and describe it as
"punctuated equilibrium" (which can be published in a scientific journal),
or one could *believe* that God was busily using OSP more so than general P
to create a world to his specifications. There's no way we can know, man can
describe it naturally, and man (who has faith in God) can see the
fingerprint of God in nature.
 
I think that's beautiful.
 
James Patterson
 
 
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