Re: [asa] Two questions...

I will offer my few cents and experience here.

By way of background, I am not a TE, nor strictly speaking a YEC. I
lean a little in both directions, and understand somewhat the motivation
of both.

For many years, I was an LCMS Lutheran, but now attend an LCMC Lutheran
church. Don't worry if you don't recognize the distinctives of any of
these groups. It will largely be irrelevant to what I have to say.

A number of years ago, the LCMS in convention passed a recommendation
that God's creation as expressed in Genesis 1-3 be proclaimed more from
the pulpit. What I suggested was that Six Day Creation (a YEC position)
and any other position (e.g., TE) be considered from the perspective of
sin. My specific suggestion at the time was that we are tempted by our
fallenness and idolatry to doubt God's Word. In our implicit or
explicit embrace of positions contrary to His Word we sin. Nonetheless,
that sin ought to be brought to light, confess it, and receive God's
forgiveness in the Blood of His Son. Moreover, in our fallenness and
depravity our understanding and reason can in no way diminish our
desparate need for Christ's Blood. To no other quarter is there safety,
salvation, and certainty.

It is not important here that most, if not all, readers disagree with
this suggestion. What is important is that what is at issue for a
Christian is not YEC or TE, but sin and its covering in the Blood of
Christ. It seems to me that many on all sides of the aisle sin
greviously with regard to the issue of evolution. They sin in their
hubris. For all those who take a side the issue lies close to replacing
Christ as the cornerstone. It is facile to do this. For many the
Scripture comes as one piece, one Word. To threaten the fabric of
interpretation built up over millennia is to threaten the whole. While
for many who embrace the new context that unity had already for many years
been weakened by tradition. Indeed, there is only now, it seems a serious
process of forging an orthodox TE perspective. It is not clear to me, at
present, whether this is possible. What then? Should we discard
orthodoxy?

My earlier suggestion still seems to me appropriate. A Christian is not
distinguished by a TE, YEC, or any such position, but the confession of
sin and the washing in the Blood of Christ. If TE or YEC be raised from
the pulpit, let it be for the sake of our sin and desparate need for
forgiveness. Let TE or YEC be fought over in other venues, as our
vocations call us. Lest it be that TE, YEC, or the like should point to
different gods or different Christs, I suggest we, like the Corinthians,
bear with our brothers and sisters, refraining from eating the flesh
worshipped to idols for their sake.

bill powers
White, SD

   On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Schwarzwald wrote:

> Heya Jim,
>
> Some responses below.
>
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Jim Armstrong <jarmstro@qwest.net> wrote:
>
>> Ah, but you have basically described the (difficult? intractable?) lay of
>> the land. Where is it that the reaction to a TE view is most evident. It is
>> precisely in the more conservative-leaning and evangelical portion of
>> American Christendom. It is less, or even no issue at all in more moderate
>> to liberal-leaning segments, including unitarian to be sure, but portions of
>> others as well in Anglican, Methodist, and UCC communities, for example.
>>
>
> And my experience is that some TEs (Certainly not all - but I'm Catholic,
> which has in some-to-large part reconciled a TE outlook with its
> conservatism and orthodoxy rather well) don't see defending TE as a goal for
> its own sake, but as a means by which to bring a hammer against a more
> conservative christian culture at large. Those attempts, in my view, are
> what many who are skeptical of TE see immediately, connect TE with
> extraneous issues, and draw the line in the sand due to it.
>
> In other words, if the goal is to defend the view that TE is reconcilable
> with scripture, then make that the goal. But if the mindset is 'We're going
> to tell you TE is right, and if you want to be right too, you have to
> sacrifice not only your views on evolution, but on original sin, inerrancy,
> gay rights, and these other views, because that's part of the TE package',
> sure, there's going to be a harder. And with good reasons too, since one
> doesn't necessitate the rest.
>
>
>>
>>
>> This looks to me like the same situation as is faced by a younger friend of
>> mine who was raised in and identifies with a more conservative portion of
>> the Christian community. But he is gay. That presents an almost insoluble
>> problem for him. He wants to live in integrity and open fellowship, but that
>> has been denied him multiple time in the conservative Christian community.
>> He can find Christian fellowships where this is simply not an issue at all,
>> but those are all more liberal-leaning (I know, I know, ...I don't really
>> like that term, but it is a useful shorthand here...I think). He has only
>> found unconditional acceptance in the more liberal fellowships where more
>> diversity in perspectives is ubiquitous but uncomfortable to him. He has no
>> desire to be a member of a "gay church", just a participative member of a
>> conservative-leaning evangelical church that doesn't care about his gayness.
>> My impression, ...it isn't going to happen. It's a painful dilemma for him,
>> and for those who empathize with him in the face of this conditional
>> expression of Christian community. But that is also the lay of the land.
>>
>> In both cases, a frontal assault, be it cloaked as ministerial or not,
>> TE-advocating or pro-gay, is likely to stiffen the resistance, not relax it.
>> The responses are coming from a gut response, a defense of the faith, not
>> from a place of internalized reason and harmony.
>>
>
> As a TE myself, I reject the mindset that those who have problems with TE
> are absolutely or even largely not operating with reason. And I'd doubly
> reject the unreasonableness charge against those who are not pro-gay. This
> is pretty much dead-on the sort of perspective that I think cripples TE
> right out of the gates.
>
> For myself, when I interact with OECs or even YECs, my goal is never to get
> them to give up their views in exchange for mine. Instead, my goal is vastly
> more marginal - showing and explaining why I think evolution reconciles with
> Genesis, how it interacts with or even works with more orthodox views about
> Adam and original sin, and the number of perspectives (rather than just a
> single ultimate one) at work within the 'TE camp' as it stands. It's my own
> personal experience, but frankly, it's resulted in a lot of fruitful
> conversation. And if the result is that they retain their old views but
> accept that a TE view is valid (or even not necessarily invalid), I consider
> that a great success.
>

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Received on Sat Feb 7 23:40:09 2009