[asa] TE Ministry WAS Two questions...

Jim,

Great email. The gay analogy is very useful because like TE they are both perceived to be a betrayal at the deepest levels of all that the conservative church holds sacred.

The missing TE receptors is a great concept as well. I think you may be right that we have to go where they exist and unfortunately that will take us to unorthodox places but we should make the case for them among the conservatuive church as well

Thanks

John

Jim Armstrong wrote:
> Ah, but you have basically described the (difficult? intractable?) lay
> of the land. Where is it that the reaction to a TE view is most
> evident. It is precisely in the more conservative-leaning and
> evangelical portion of American Christendom. It is less, or even no
> issue at all in more moderate to liberal-leaning segments, including
> unitarian to be sure, but portions of others as well in Anglican,
> Methodist, and UCC communities, for example.
> This looks to me like the same situation as is faced by a younger
> friend of mine who was raised in and identifies with a more
> conservative portion of the Christian community. But he is gay. That
> presents an almost insoluble problem for him. He wants to live in
> integrity and open fellowship, but that has been denied him multiple
> time in the conservative Christian community. He can find Christian
> fellowships where this is simply not an issue at all, but those are all
> more liberal-leaning (I know, I know, ...I don't really like that term,
> but it is a useful shorthand here...I think). He has only found
> unconditional acceptance in the more liberal fellowships where more
> diversity in perspectives is ubiquitous but uncomfortable to him. He
> has no desire to be a member of a "gay church", just a participative
> member of a conservative-leaning evangelical church that doesn't care
> about his gayness. My impression, ...it isn't going to happen. It's a
> painful dilemma for him, and for those who empathize with him in the
> face of this conditional expression of Christian community. But that is
> also the lay of the land.
> In both cases, a frontal assault, be it cloaked as ministerial or not,
> TE-advocating or pro-gay, is likely to stiffen the resistance, not
> relax it. The responses are coming from a gut response, a defense of
> the faith, not from a place of internalized reason and harmony.  For
> most, there just do not have any "TE receptors". To even entertain such
> receptors would be the first step on a slippery slope. A pro-TE
> ministry, once identified, would likely become a lightning rod,
> reinforcing the emotional responses and unreceptivity.
> So my sense at least is that a ministry form (a targeted form) of
> TE-advocacy per se (best as I can imagine it) would be about as
> effective as a gay- (or LGBT-) advocacy directed at thess audiences.
> For the conservative leaning churches I am aware of - even here in the
> southwest - either would be a non-starter. For many, the leadership
> minds, already made up, would reflexively hold a ministerial TE
> offering at arms length. I lived a long time as a TE in a conservative
> denomination, gamely trying to be a bit of light in this regard, before
> finally moving on to where I wasn't fighting an uphill battle,
> essentially wasting most of my time and creativity. I would not demean
> that part of my path at all. Much good and important to me happened
> there. But in this aspect of that part of my journey, I was a slow
> learner.
> So the real question is, "Where are the minds with receptors?" Go
> there! Perhaps the most effective paths realistically lie in
> maintaining a audible voice in any venue available, or which can be
> made available, homes, courts, college spiritual communities, state and
> local political bodies when necessary, lectures, workshops, etc. But
> the guiding principal is, "Let those who have ears, listen." Where are
> the listening ears to be found?
> One last thought, I wonder if will have changed significantly in
> another generation. Who knows?
> Regards   -    Jim Armstrong (Friend of ASA)
> Schwarzwald wrote:
> I think a TE ministry would and could find success A) if
> it did not largely base itself on attacking YECs, but simply arguing
> the case for a TE view of genesis, and B) if it did not obviously dump
> large portions of biblical christianity as well, to the point that it
> seemed practically unitarian in outlook. The second part in particular
> seems to be a problem, since it often seems that one big roadblock to
> even considering TE is the view that evolution necessitates other views
> more orthodox christians sharply disagree with, such as a justification
> of eugenics-friendly views and policies.
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:38 PM, John Walley < john_walley@yahoo.com >
> wrote:
> Also I thought of Fred Hereen who wrote "Show Me God" after I sent
> this. He has a small radio and print ministry aimed at the popular
> audience that is solidly TE. He is a good guy and may be a better
> example of what we have in the way of nascent TE popular ministries but
> I agree I would like to see more. In fact I would like to see a church
> atmosphere where those guys could survive and even thrive. Well we can
> hope anyway.
> Thanks
> John
> --- On Fri, 2/6/09, Dehler, Bernie < bernie.dehler@intel.com >
> wrote:
>> From: Dehler, Bernie < bernie.dehler@intel.com >
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions...
>> To: " asa@calvin.edu "
> < asa@calvin.edu >
>> Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 7:47 PM
> > John Walley said " I think the best we
> have is the
>> Thank God for Evolution guy but in my neck of the woods
>> people think he is misguided at best, a quack in general and
>> one of those evil-lutionist servants of Satan on the other
>> extreme."
>>
>> That guy is not a Christian- he doesn't even believe in
>> an afterlife.  I asked him in a group presentation once in
>> Portland.  He masquerades as a Christian to get into the
>> Christian marketplace, I think.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>> [mailto: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu ]
> On Behalf Of John Walley
>> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 4:35 PM
>> To: Keith Miller; Dave Wallace
>> Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation Affiliation
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions...
>>
>>
>>
>> Herein lies the reason for the lack of a prominent TE
>> oriented ministry, there is no support or market for it in
>> the church. Face it, becoming a TE will get you kicked out
>> of most evangelical churches. My friend was afraid to tell
>> his own wife for months and when he did he said he felt it
>> would have been easier to tell her he was gay.
>>
>> I used to long for a TE ministry to belong to as well until
>> I realized just how divisive and polarizing this was. I
>> would love to see RTB or Ravi Z or William Lane Craig or
>> Chuck Colson come out and stress honest science as an
>> effective evangelical tool (what a concept) but it would
>> likely mean ministry suicide for them overnight. Not that
>> that is a bad thing but just something that is not likely to
>> happen.
>>
>> I think the best we have is the Thank God for Evolution guy
>> but in my neck of the woods people think he is misguided at
>> best, a quack in general and one of those evil-lutionist
>> servants of Satan on the other extreme. I think this is
>> something that people just have to come to on their own and
>> the word leaks out gradually. And maybe it is best if it is
>> not popularized or marketed. The church definitely has a
>> major theological reset coming to it though. I think it will
>> be equivalent to that of the Copernican Revolution if not
>> more impactful and I don't think that is an
>> exaggeration.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 2/6/09, Dave Wallace
>> < wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com >
> wrote:
>>
>> > From: Dave Wallace < wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com >
>> > Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions...
>> > To: "Keith Miller" < kbmill@ksu.edu >
>> > Cc: "AmericanScientificAffiliation
>> Affiliation" < asa@calvin.edu >
>> > Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 6:57 PM
>> > Keith Miller wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I don't think that there necessarily has to
>> be an
>> > organization built around every valued and important
>> > ministry.  I very much see myself in the role that you
>> > describe above.  That is the motivation for much of
>> what I
>> > do.  There are many efforts by a diverse range of
>> > individuals and organizations for which this is an
>> important
>> > goal.
>> > >
>> > > Keith
>> > I for one very much appreciate the book that Keith
>> > contributed to and edited as well as all the other
>> people on
>> > the list who also wrote chapters!
>> > I would be very surprised if either Keith, George or
>> Dick
>> > make much if any money from their books.  It would be
>> nice
>> > if there were an endowment to at least pay for a good
>> part
>> > of the authors time.
>> >
>> > Thanks all
>> > Dave Wallace
>> >
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Sat Feb 7 04:06:09 2009