Re: [asa] The theist challenge

 This "theist challenge" already presumes atheism is true, because if Christianity (for example) is true, then you can actually _know_ God, not just believe in Him as a proposition; and if you do indeed _know_ Him then it is possible your degree of knowing Him is so high that there would be no possible way for you to be logically convinced that He isn't there, not even in principle.? But this "challenge" implies that if you cannot state anything that will disprove theism for you, then you are a closed-minded person and do not have any logical basis to believe in God.? For this reason the "challenge" itself is illogical and closed-minded.? To be honest, it would have to admit that if theism is true then theism might not be falsifiable, and to be open-minded it would have to admit that falsifiability is not always a valid test of closed-mindedness.

I 'spose I could say that I could be convinced God doesn't exist if first someone proves to me that my entire life from the age of 17 onwards was a hallucination, but I don't think that very likely since during that time I also earned a PhD in physics, won many awards in my profession, convinced a very nice woman to marry me, have been raising kids fairly well, taught children's Sunday School for many years, served on the board of directors of a school, etc.? So in my case I think theism is not falsifiable.? But "the secret of the Lord is for those who fear him" and so I'd never expect a non-theist to accept this as true.? It's a little secret between me, God, and many others who fear Him.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Roberts <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>
To: John Burgeson (ASA member) <hossradbourne@gmail.com>; ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: [asa] The theist challenge

I would cease to be a Christian if they could prove that Jesus' body was
still in Jerusalem and they found his tomb.?
?

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Burgeson (ASA member)" <hossradbourne@gmail.com>?

To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>?

Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 8:48 PM?

Subject: [asa] The theist challenge?
?

> The following is copied from the blog I mentioned earlier today.?

>?

> http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/a-clarification-on-the-theists-guide.html?

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------?

> In my Ebon Musings essay, "The Theist's Guide to Converting Atheists",?

> I wrote that I would link to any theist who was willing to post a list?

> of things they would accept as proof that atheism is true. That offer?

> has been open since I first posted the essay in 2001; it is still open?

> now and will remain open as long as practical.?

>?

> However, for me to consider your essay a valid answer to that?

> challenge, it must answer the question I actually posed: What argument?

> or observation could convince you to not believe in God? If what your?

> essay argues is, "You could never persuade me to not believe in God?

> and here's why," then you are not answering the question that I asked.?

> I will not link to responses that do not give a legitimate answer to?

> this question.?

>?

> In fact, responses of this nature emphasize my point rather than?

> contradict it: for most theists, belief in God is an unfalsifiable?

> construct bearing no relation to the facts of the world. That is what?

> I wrote at the beginning of the Theist's Guide:?

>?

> Many theists, by their own admission, structure their beliefs so that?

> no evidence could possibly disprove them. In short, they are?

> closed-minded, and have been taught to be closed-minded.?

>?

> What this means is that, for me to account your answer valid, it must?

> consist of something that we could, at least in principle, either?

> agree upon or discover to be true. This rules out logical?

> impossibilities, such as "I would become an atheist if I died and then?

> discovered that there was no consciousness after death." (I've heard?

> that one.) It also rules out counterfactual statements - saying that?

> you would cease to believe in God only if the world was different than?

> it is, for example, that you would become an atheist if there were no?

> such thing as love or goodness. (I've heard both of those as well.)?

>?

> If all the items that would drive you to atheism are counterfactuals,?

> i.e., things that we already know not to be true, then what you're?

> essentially saying is that there are no possible discoveries that?

> would make you an atheist, and you have again failed to respond to the?

> point of the challenge. This would be like me saying, "The only?

> possible thing that would make me believe in God would be if the world?

> was a perfect paradise that contained no death, evil or suffering." I?

> think most theists would consider this unfair, and rightfully so. I'm?

> ruling out their answer from the start by making my belief contingent?

> on something that we already know is not true.?

>?

> Now, if you're arguing that you would cease to believe in God if some?

> particular, widely held proposition were falsified, that is a?

> different matter. But in that case, I'd expect that you would?

> supplement this answer by explaining what evidence would falsify the?

> proposition in question. On the other hand, when someone says they'd?

> be an atheist only if there was no love in the world, that's clearly?

> not their intent. They're not imagining a discovery that might be made?

> in this world, but speculating that they'd be an atheist in a?

> different world altogether. I trust that the difference between those?

> two things is clear.?

>?

>?

> --
> Burgy?

>?

> www.burgy.50megs.com?

>?

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Received on Fri Nov 28 16:55:49 2008