Re: [asa] On secular culture. Is the academy to blame?

David,

First, John Walley puts forth a lot of Dinesh's articles. So I thought I
would too. If it hadn't been in American Legion I might not have. As a Viet
Nam era vet I am a member of the American legion. I think the values of
vets are not reflected in American culture. I think the values of
Christains are not reflected in American culture.. And I definitely think
the values of Islam are not reflected.

The radical extremists are but what? 5%? And my understanding is the ones
they attack the most are the 1.3 Billion other Muslims who may not be
following what the extremists want. The rest of us (the non-Muslims) come
second in their crosshairs. Look at the history of Spain - how a grand
Islamic civilization was overthrown by radical African Muslims who hated the
brand of Islam in Spain. History is repeating.

The real question is what are the views of the majority of Muslims toward
Christians? One of my friends, who I believe is Muzatalite, which is a
liberal group? writes articles about the decadent secular west. He is
certainly not in league with the extremists groups. Yet he would agree with
Dinesh. My co-workers - same thing. And they are not extremists. But this
is also a good deal of why they are often silent about the deeds of the
radicals.

The 20 young men the FBI is currently investigating, who have gone missing
from Minneapolis in order to fight in Somalia, are said to suffer from
cultural revulsion at America. They did not start out as extremists. They
were recruited because they developed an attitude after living here. But
they have escaped the poverty of Africa. They came to America because it is
moneyland. And came away in a sort of shock and rage. I dont think they
are blaming Christians. They didnt see a Christian culture in
Minneapolis.

My question really had to do more with the role of the acedemy in leading
the west into a new form of secularism. One that is more anti-Christian than
ever before. You see , I suspect what secular means today is different than
what it mean as recently as 1776. Between the days of Henry III and 1776
secular rulers meant non-clerics but still those who were agreeing with
Christian principles. The secular rulers were all Christians. This was
(roughly) true even right up into my own lifetime.

Today secular, as understood on the street, means not agreeing with but
instead rejecting Christian principles. The difference is huge - it is as
far as the east is from the west.

At any rate, the academy has had it's role in affecting culture. It hasn't
just been hiding in the lab.

Best Regards,
David Clounch

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 9:43 AM, David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>wrote:

> Interesting take, except that radical Islamists are just as insistent on
> death to Christians of any stripe as they are on death to secular
> materialists. In fact, some of the most intense persecution of Christians
> around the world happens when Muslims convert to Christianity in countries
> dominated by radical Islam and are automatically under an edict of fatwa.
> It is true that radical Islam breeds in environments of economic and
> political disadvantage, that the policies of Western states are sometimes
> partly responsible for perpetuating that kind of disadvantage, and that
> radical Islamists use this as a recruiting tool in the jihad against the
> secular West. However, it seems to me a naive perspective on radical Islam
> to suggest that these folks are hunky-dory with Christians who share some
> conservative moral values. There are many Christians in jails and torture
> chambers in radical Islamist countries who would suggest otherwise.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:41 AM, David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> The following article by Dinesh D'Souza was published in this month's
>> issue of American Legion. I am amazed at Christians finding agreement with
>> Osama Bin Laden and with the president of Iran. But it resonates with the
>> reported views of people I know. The Muslims I personally talk with say
>> they are angry with the secular materialist state and the decadent
>> unChristian culture of the west. I ask myself, "What has been the role of
>> the academy in all this? Of scientists?"
>>
>> -Dave
>>
>>
>> For many Western liberals—and even some conservatives—the war on terror is
>> a clash of opposed fundamentalisms: Christian fundamentalism vs. Islamic
>> fundamentalism. So, in this view, Christian and Muslim religious fanatics
>> are once again fighting each other, as they have done in the past.
>>
>> From this perspective, the best solution is for America to stand up for
>> the principles of secularism and oppose both Muslim fundamentalism and
>> Christian fundamentalism. But in reality secularism is not the solution.
>> Secularism is the problem. It is the West's agenda of secularism that is
>> alienating traditional Muslims and pushing them toward the radical camp.
>>
>> The common understanding of the battle as one between two rival
>> fundamentalisms is superficially supported by Bin Laden's rhetoric declaring
>> a religious war of civilizations. Bin Laden speaks of the world being
>> divided into the "region of faith" and the "region of infidelity." At times
>> Bin Laden defines the clash as one between the Muslims and the crusaders.
>>
>> But the context of Bin Laden's arguments clearly shows that Bin Laden is
>> not speaking of a religious war between Islam and Christianity. In the same
>> videotaped remarks where Bin Laden posits these conflicts, he praises
>> Christianity. In one statement Bin Laden observes that Islam respects the
>> prophets of Judaism, Christianity and Islam "without distinguishing among
>> them."
>>
>> In the classical Muslim understanding, there is a fundamental distinction
>> between Jews and Christians on the one hand and polytheists and atheists on
>> the other. According to Islam, Judaism and Christianity are incomplete but
>> genuine revelations. As monotheists, Jews and Christians have historically
>> been entitled to Muslim respect and even protection. In every Islamic
>> empire, from the Umayyad to the Abbasid to the Ottoman, Jews and Christians
>> were permitted to practice their religion and in no Muslim regime has it
>> ever been considered legitimate to systematically kill them.
>>
>> By contrast, polytheists and atheists have always been anathema to Islam.
>> The Koran says, "Fight the pagans all together as they fight you all
>> together" and "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them." These passages,
>> which Bin Laden frequently quotes, do not refer to Christians, because
>> Christians are not considered pagans or idolaters. Rather, they refer to
>> those, like the Beduins of ancient Arabia, who worship many gods or no god.
>> Muslims are commanded to fight these unbelievers, especially when they
>> threaten the House of Islam.
>>
>> Muslim radicals could repudiate the entire Islamic tradition and argue
>> that Christians and Jews are no different from atheists and deserve the same
>> treatment. But this claim would undoubtedly alienate traditional Muslims.
>> Sheikh Muhammad Tantawi, head of Al Azhar University, recently argued the
>> traditional view that "Islam has never been and will never be at war with
>> Christianity." For Bin Laden to declare war against Chrsitianity would even
>> divide the radical Muslim camp. The influential radical sheikh Yusuf
>> Qaradawi has said that as Muslims, "We believe in the Jewish and Christian
>> scriptures. Our Islamic faith is not complete without them."
>>
>> Islamic radicals like Bin Laden make their case against America and the
>> West on the grounds that these cultures have abandoned Christianity. In his
>> May 2006 letter to President Bush, Ahmadinejad faulted America not for being
>> Christian, but for not being Christian enough. Many years earlier, the
>> radical theoretician Sayyid Qutb made the same point. The main reason for
>> the West's moral decay, Qutb argued, is that in the modern era "religious
>> convictions are no more than a matter of antiquarian interest."
>>
>> Other Muslim radicals today echo these arguments. The influential
>> Pakistani scholar Khurshid Ahmad, leader of the Jamaat-i-Islami, argues,
>> "Had Western culture been based on Christianity, on morality, on faith, the
>> language and modus operandi of the contact and conflict would have been
>> different. But that is not the case. The choice is between the divine
>> principle and a secular materialistic culture."
>>
>> Even though Christianity has eroded, Muslim radicals contend that the
>> ancient crusading spirit now infuses the pagan culture of the West. When Bin
>> Laden calls America a crusader state, he means that America is on a vicious
>> international campaign to impose its atheist system of government and its
>> pagan values on Muslims. How? My supporting secular dictators in Pakistan,
>> Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. And by exporting a secular culture that
>> undermines the traditional values of Islam.
>>
>> In this way, Bin Laden argues that America is hell-bent on destroying the
>> Muslim religion. The rallying cry of Islamic radicalism is that "Islam is
>> under attack." In his 1998 declaration Bin Laden called on Muslims to
>> "launch attacks against the armies of the American devils" and to kill
>> Americans whom he identified as the "helpers of Satan." In a 2003 sermon,
>> Bin Laden praised the September 11 hijackers and compared the twin towers of
>> the World Trade Center to the idols in the Kaaba that the Prophet Muhammad
>> destroyed in the year 630 upon his victorious return to Mecca.
>>
>> Thus the doctrine that the war against terrorism is a battle of two
>> opposed forms of religious fundamentalism is false. This is not why the
>> Islamic radicals are fighting against America. From the perspective of Bin
>> Laden and his allies, the war is between the Muslim-led forces of monotheism
>> and morality against the America-led forces of atheism and immorality.
>> Secularism, not Christian fundamentalism, is responsible for producing a
>> blowback of Muslim rage.
>>
>
>

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Received on Fri Nov 28 00:36:24 2008