Re: Where are the dear departed? (was Re: [asa] Sin, animals, and salvation)

Murray,

What is your opinion as to where Moses and Elijah came from to appear with
Jesus at His transfiguration?

Gordon Brown (ASA member)

On Sat, 22 Nov 2008, Murray Hogg wrote:

> Hi Dick,
>
> It's probably worth mentioning here that the idea of the spirits of the just
> residing with Christ in an interim "death - resurrection" period has been
> floated at various points in church history. It's essentially the Roman
> Catholic doctrine of "Limbo" <http://tinyurl.com/22ksg8>. It's pretty common
> to encounter discussions of "Limbo of Infants" (the place where the souls of
> those who died in infancy reside) but Limbo is properly a broader idea - it
> includes the notion of "Abraham's Bosom" where the adult righteous reside. So
> in some respects we're covering some pretty well trodden ground.
>
> In THAT particular discussion a commonly discussed passage (not yet raised
> here) is 1 Peter 3:19 which refers to Jesus going to "proclaim" (most
> translations have "preach" but the Gk word here is not the one normally so
> translated) to the spirits in prison. Some (whom I consider too optimistic!)
> will appeal to Eph 4:7-10 and Rom 10:7 in support.
>
> I make this point because I think it appropriate to point out that the idea
> of an intermediate state is an ongoing theological difficulty and we need not
> assume that it is easy to resolve. But one thing I suspect is that it's only
> with the rise of relativity theory, and the awareness that time is NOT as
> "simple" as we might like to think, that we might be placed to resolve some
> of the difficulties.
>
> My basic contention is that to INSIST that passages which talk of "descent"
> or "departure" must relate to the time-frame of our experience seem to me
> tied to a Newtonian view of the universe. Indeed, I'd suggest that as space
> and time are inter-related in a single coordinate system, then to INSIST that
> we work with a single temporal coordinate system seems to DEMAND that we work
> with a single spacial coordinate system - making heaven and hell physical
> places standing in spacial relationship with our reality.
>
> In other words, I think there's a hidden dependence upon the assumption of
> the old "three decker universe" lurking here. We have comfortably abandoned
> (I think) the idea of a literal "descent" into Hades - i.e. abandoned the use
> of "our" spacial coordinate system. But we miss that time is as much a
> created entity as space and we insist on connecting what Jesus did during his
> "descent" with our temporal coordinate system. But on our understanding of
> space-time I think this is perhaps improper?
>
> Now let me be clear that I'm not insisting that it's WRONG to try to
> chronologically "map" Jesus post-mortem / pre-resurrection activities onto
> OUR temporal frame. But I am questioning whether we necessarily should. In
> particular, I'm questioning why we have been able to accept the idea that
> Jesus' "descent" refers to a "trans-location" to another spacial dimension
> BUT we have difficulty with the idea that it also might involve a
> "trans-location" to a different temporal location? Time is just such a
> weirder and less intuitive concept than space, I guess, and escaping a
> Newtonian concept of time as something we are "in" and which "flows"
> regularly in all parts of the universe (and beyond!) is so very hard to do.
>
> But if one IS going to speak of heaven and hell as different "dimensions" to
> our own - then one ought to keep Einstein's discussions of simultaneity in
> mind. We can't even speak of temporal simultaneity in our OWN spacial
> coordinate system - to speak of temporal simultaneity of another space-time
> coordinate system with our own should, I think, really strike us as
> problematic.
>
> Returning to my primary objection - which I certainly maintain in the
> strongest possible terms - I simply can't see the merit in the idea that the
> souls awaiting resurrection have already been judged. And I've seen nothing
> which suggests that "we die and go to heaven" theories can escape this -
> indeed, I think some are actually advocating the idea. But, frankly, I
> consider that there is so much strong NT support for the idea of a
> post-resurrection judgment that I simply can't see how any schemata requiring
> judgment at the time of death - not even a "provisional" judgment - can be
> sustained.
>
> On Luke 16:22-23 I'll only reiterate my previous remarks: if you're going to
> appeal to this passage in support of the idea that the unrighteous go
> straight to hell then (1) you also need to affirm a LITERAL Abraham's Bosom
> where ALL the blessed recline and, as I said in my earlier post, I've NEVER
> meet anybody who wants to do so; and more importantly (2) you have to wrench
> the passage out of its context to make it teach something that has NOTHING to
> do with Jesus point. In short, I find appeals to this particular passage to
> be enormously problematic and, if you'll forgive me for saying so, I think
> such appeals are selective and misinformed.
>
> On the thief on the cross - please see my previous remarks to Bernie on
> Paul's departure "to be with Christ" (it's the same "why accept the temporal
> framework unless your affirming the same spacial framework" query as above).
>
> The idea of going to a different planet is novel (I think) - but what happens
> when THAT planet's sun dies? And etc. I'm reasonably certain that it doesn't
> work as a long-term solution!
>
> Finally, I just HAVE to draw attention to one critically important point in
> this entire discussion;
>
> When people ask the question about who does / doesn't go to heaven (pets
> included) then they are not GENERALLY asking "where do we go BEFORE we are
> raised from the dead and judged". Rather they are working with a conceptual
> framework ENTIRELY foreign to the Biblical understanding - they are working
> with the idea that heaven and hell are "spiritual" places where we go
> immediately at the point of death and never leave. This is to advocate (1) a
> cosmology which is, frankly, naive in the extreme; and (2) a fundamentally
> non-Christian notion of creation and redemption. It is this two-fold error
> which is my primary objection NOT the idea of an intermediate state (although
> for reasons mentioned I find even this to be a very thorny subject).
>
> In that context, discussions of the intermediate state are somewhat relevant
> in that they really force one to think through how one understands the
> relation between space-time and resurrection BUT it must be kept in mind that
> the FINAL and not the INTERMEDIATE state is the point at issue.
>
> So whilst I'm happy to discuss the intermediate state I would urge folk to
> keep in mind that my ultimate concern is how we understand the final state of
> the un/righteous and that my claim is that GENERALLY people's talk about
> "going to heaven" actually involves a rejection of what the NT states very
> clearly: there will be a physical resurrection of the righteous and
> unrighteous, this will be followed by a judgment, and our eternal state - in
> a renewed creation - will involve a physical existence albeit of a sort
> vastly different from that we experience now.
>
> With that in mind I'll simply renew my objection: when most people speak of
> "dying and going to heaven" it should be acknowledged that this has NOTHING
> to do with the Biblical picture of the FINAL state - it's certainly NOT a
> claim about an INTERMEDIATE state of the sort I believe is being considered
> here.
>
> Blessings,
> Murray Hogg
> Pastor, East Camberwell Baptist Church, Victoria, Australia
> Post-Grad Student (MTh), Australian College of Theology
>
> Dick Fischer wrote:
>> Let me take a stab at the question. The thief on the cross went to be
>> with Jesus straight away that night in spirit (Luke 23:43). That infers
>> that when the body dies the spirit of the just resides with Christ.
>> When the rich man died his soul was in hell (Luke 16:22-23). So the
>> punishment/reward seems to be immediate, however, there will be a new
>> heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1). Christ received a glorified body
>> and if we are to receive new physical bodies (and heaven knows we could
>> use one) it possibly will be on another planet in a different solar
>> system before or when our sun dies and envelopes the earth in a "lake of
>> fire."
>>
>> Dick Fischer, GPA president
>> Genesis Proclaimed Association
>> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
>> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Fri Nov 21 21:29:13 2008