Re: Where are the dear departed? (was Re: [asa] Sin, animals, and salvation)

Thanks for these observations Ted. I don't read Wright as slamming Moltmann
and Pannenberg, but rather as trying to preserve some of their core insights
while retaining ontological separation between God and creation.

In chapter 5 of "Surprised by Hope" (titled "Cosmic Future: Progress or
Despair," Wright says in a footnote that "[t]heologians will recognize that
i am in implicit dialogue throughout this part of the book with two of the
great German theologians of hte last generation: [Pannenberg and
Moltmann]." (p. 303 n.1). He further says: "There is an entire book to be
written as part of this ongoing conversation, but this is not it" and cites
Richard Bauckham's book on Moltmann.

And then Wright is distinguishinges himself from Moltmann here: "This is
part of my answer to jurgen Moltmann's proposal to revive the rabbinic
doctrine of* zimzum*, in which God as it were retreats, creates space within
himself, so that there is ontological space for there to be something else
other than him. If I am right, it works the other way around. God's
relative love, precisely by being love, creates *new* space for there to be
things that are genuinely other than God. . . . One day, when all forces of
rebellion have been defeated and the creation responds freely and gladly to
the love of its creator, God will fill it with himself so that it will *both
* remain an independent being, other than God, *and also* be flooded with
God's own life." (Surprised by Hope, p. 102).

How specifically does panentheism relate to Moltmann's theology of the
crucified God?

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Ted Davis <TDavis@messiah.edu> wrote:

> >>> "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@gmail.com> 11/20/2008 10:21 AM >>>
> writes:
>
> Good observation Ted. In fact, NT Wright's "Surprised by Hope" is
> chock-full of references to Polkinghorne. The middle chapters of the book
> could be seen as NT Wright's take on Polkinghorne's eschatology in
> dialogue
> with Moltmann and Pannenberg (Wright doesn't dismiss Moltmann out of hand
> but is strong on asserting that creation is "other" than God, specifically
> by way of contrast to Moltmann's panentheism). I can't recommend
> "Surprised
> by Hope" highly enough. It's not a faith-science book, but it offers some
> fresh perspectives on the purpose of creation, suffering, and redemption
> that fit well into faith-science discussions.
>
> *********
>
> Two comments on Moltmann and Polkinghorne.
>
> (1) Polkinghorne, like Wright, rejects panentheism for understanding the
> present creation. However, he does believe (he may have come to this view
> fairly recently) that the new heaven and earth are "within God," insofar as
> nothing will happen there outside of the divine will. The transformed
> matter and our own bodies will be different from those in this world. The
> new creation is not the old creation, and God's relationship to it will be
> different. Panentheism would describe that new relationship, for
> Polkinghorne, but not the present one.
>
> (2) Moltmann's theology of the "crucified God" has been the single most
> important theological insight that has shaped Polkinghorne's own theology.
> His writings verify this, and he told me precisely this several years ago.
>
> Ted
>
>

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Received on Thu Nov 20 11:09:58 2008