RE: [asa] Sin, animals, and salvation

Pastor Murray said:
"We might come to see that some of our current attitudes to animals (such as Bernie has commented on in earlier posts) are misplaced and that the question at hand therefore displays a certain lack of perspective."

As a parallel, there is nothing wrong with getting a little tipsy with wine, since Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding celebration. What if someone asked "will there be wine in heaven?" because they are so attached to it on Earth? In a way, it is all about attachments... and there will be better things in heaven, namely Christ, but who knows what else. Christine- we all agree, I think, that we should reasonably care for animals- such as animal shelters and preventing abuse. And we all agree that many people go overboard on their pets, which must be a sin when humans are dying of starvation around the world... misplaced attachments. Others may be really concerned about their car and house. To me- it's all the same, acknowledging that some are animate and others are inanimate.

Pastor Murray said:
" Like NT Wright <http://tinyurl.com/32t3t9> I simply see this idea of "going to heaven" as entirely divorced from the New Testament understanding which sees humanity living in a renewed earth."

How about this as an NT example of "going to heaven?":

Phil 1
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Feel free to answer that by starting a new thread, as it is off-topic. If Paul departs and is with Christ- where are they right now? Certainly they aren't on the new Earth, because it wasn't made new yet.

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:10 PM
To: ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Sin, animals, and salvation

Hi all,

Not responding to anybody in particular, but simply airing a few thoughts;

First, my biggest problem with this entire question is the ongoing talk of anyone / anything -- human OR animal -- "going to heaven".

Like NT Wright <http://tinyurl.com/32t3t9> I simply see this idea of "going to heaven" as entirely divorced from the New Testament understanding which sees humanity living in a renewed earth.

So, for my money, the question should be a different one, viz: "will there be animals in the redeemed creation" or "on the new earth"

Here I find it interesting that some of the most poignant images of this new creation include animals;

6 " The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 11:6-9 (see also Isaiah 65:25)

I'd also affirm the remarks found on the website of a Victorian Baptist associate of mine found at;

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/16560.htm

I particularly like the observation that the question is usually NOT a generic one (i.e. "will there be animals in heaven") but specific (i.e. "will spot / fiffi / tiddles be in heaven"). Now apart from the aforementioned reservations about talk of earthly creatures (human or otherwise) ending up "in heaven" - I think that when such a specific question is put we simply can't offer a conclusive answer for at least the reason that we don't know whether animals have a "self" that might be restored (at least some of the "personality" of animals seems to me a case of projection on our part) and we don't know what criteria God might use to determine which animals "deserve" what amounts to an equivalent of salvation.

I don't think any of the above conclusively answers what I believe should be the "real" question of whether animals will be found "in the new creation" but I think it may point toward an affirmative answer.

One final thought occurs to me in closing: that WE are going to be fully redeemed suggests that we will undergo some sort of transformation in our attitudes to animals. I'd offer the speculative suggestion that this might involve a lessening of our emotional dependence on pets such that we might come to see this question in an entirely different light. We might come to see that some of our current attitudes to animals (such as Bernie has commented on in earlier posts) are misplaced and that the question at hand therefore displays a certain lack of perspective.

Blessings,
Murray Hogg
Pastor, East Camberwell Baptist Church, Victoria, Australia
Post-Grad Student (MTh), Australian College of Theology

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Received on Wed Nov 19 17:41:41 2008