Re: Re: [asa] Sin, animals, and salvation

Hi all,

I wrote:
" ... put all these things together, and I see a picture of a loving God and Creator not only redeeming and adopting us as children in His kingdom, but also a loving God and Creator who will give eternal life to all His other "good" creatures, His "pets" if you will, in His kingdom too."

Bernie replied:
"Hi Christine- To what level of animals does that hold true? For example, I know tigers, bears, and pandas are cute, so they are in. But what about snakes, spiders, mosquitos, worms, bacteria, and viruses? Where do you draw the line?"

Good question :) One I get quite often...the short answer is, I don't know. As you noted in your original reply, things are often gray, rather than black/white. In reality, only God knows where that line really is (or indeed, where any of us will be, ultimately). But a few ponderings would express my current leanings...

It's apparent that the qualities which I referred to as reflecting the "divine essence" or the "breath of life" if you will, are evolutionarily linked to brain development. As far as I know, the most emotional, rational, and self-aware/sentient animals are the ones with the most complex brain structures. So, one could argue that any creature with complex enough brain development to support these attributes may contain within themselves a reflection of the divine that God would bring into new life in His kingdom. If so, that would place the "line" somewhere perhaps around fish.

Another possibility would be relational in character. At what level is an animal capable of relating to humans, or other animals, in a way that goes beyond what might be considered "natural", exhibiting signs of intentional self-sacrifice or love that moves beyond survival instincts? This type of love could be illustrated by the many stories we hear of interspecies relationships, or of elephant groups mourning their relatives. Given that the Trinity is relational, I could perhaps see a doctrinal root for this idea here. C. S. Lewis in the "Problem of Pain" also pondered something somewhat similar (his was more that animals find salvation through us, as we find salvation through Christ).

Regardless, (and as a bit of an aside) I think one of the things that is important to keep in mind here is a proper perspective. I strongly believe that animals experience resurrection and eternal life as humans do (though without the need for forgiveness and redemption) However, I do not follow the "new age" philosophies that would place humans at the same level as animals, nor do I think eating meat is "sinful" or "wrong". It has helped me very much to think of our role in terms of the Incarnation. To Christ, we are sheep, and He is the Good Shepherd. He is both God (distinctly different and better than us), but He also represents the fullness of humanity (in that He was 100% human and perfect in God's sight). He treats us both as subjects to His Lordship and sovereignty, but He also treats as His beloved friends and siblings. In much the same way, I see that to animals (and all of creation too), we are their shepherd, and they are our sheep. We are
human (distinctly different and better than them), but we also represent the fullness of the animal kingdom (in that we are also 100% animal and that we are the pinnacle of what God created animals to be). We treat animals both as subjects to our lordship (stewardship) and sovereingty, but we also (should) treat them as beloved co-creatures of God with whom we share a common community and world.

Jim--I don't want to ignore your comments. It has also occurred to me that the chasm between God and man is much larger than the differences between man and animal, and that perhaps this perspective would be helpful. It strikes me as amazing that, though we could be thought of as "ants" next to the Almighty, He yet died for us and loves us. What a lesson that should be as we decide how to treat the "ants" in our own backyards. Good food (and humility) for thought.

In Christ,
Christine (ASA member)

"For we walk by faith, not by sight" ~II Corinthians 5:7

Help save the life of a homeless animal--visit www.azrescue.org to find out how.

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--- On Mon, 11/17/08, Jim Armstrong wrote:

> From: Jim Armstrong
> Subject: Re: [asa] Sin, animals, and salvation
> To: "ASA"
> Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 3:33 PM
> Bernie - Just to extrapolate this line of thinking a bit,
> and very
> speculatively, to address Christine's question
> ...perhaps we are too
> disposed to ignore a certain different comparison. Consider
> the relative
> positions on the gray scale when considering the
> "distance" between the
> transcendent Creator and the whole of all of the living
> kinds mentioned
> below, as contrasted with the "distances" among
> those living kinds. I am
> inclined to think that we (from our understandably
> anthropomorphic
> perspective) a little too quick to think of ourselves as so
> distinctly
> different from other living creatures. In that light,
> Christine's
> thoughts about "redeeming and adopting all as
> children" would perhaps
> not be so easily dismissed.
>
> From another perspective, they ARE already part of the
> kingdom (though
> not redeemed in any sense I can think of, other than
> perhaps saved from
> extinction) if we live in the kingdom today.
>
> And from yet another, if the kingdom is yet to come, and in
> a
> different-than-physical form, who can even speculate
> rationally about
> what essence of which creatures would (or would not)
> experience some
> sort of continuity and relationship with us?
>
> Just thinking out loud....again....
> Regards - JimA [Friend of ASA]
>
> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> > Christine said:
> > " ... put all these things together, and I see a
> picture of a loving God and Creator not only redeeming and
> adopting us as children in His kingdom, but also a loving
> God and Creator who will give eternal life to all His other
> "good" creatures, His "pets" if you
> will, in His kingdom too."
> >
> > Hi Christine- To what level of animals does that hold
> true? For example, I know tigers, bears, and pandas are
> cute, so they are in. But what about snakes, spiders,
> mosquitos, worms, bacteria, and viruses? Where do you draw
> the line?
> >
> > I think one of the problems is when people refuse to
> see the grey-scale in all this. But I think seeing the
> grey-scale is part of the solution. When did humans become
> accountable for sin? Grey-scale. Who is or isn't a
> Christian now? Grey-scale. The black & white thinking
> brings on the errors. The literal Adam and strict literal
> interpretation of Genesis is part of that black & white
> thinking method, I think.
> >
> > BTW- I know this has probably all been discussed
> before, but probably it will always need to be re-visited
> and rehashed- that's human nature, and new people coming
> into the discussion. Plus, our ideas change over time.
> >
> > ...Bernie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Christine
> Smith
> > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:36 AM
> > To: asa@calvin.edu
> > Subject: RE: [asa] Sin, animals, and salvation (was:
> CS Lewis and going-off the deep-end (spiritual evolution))
> >
> > Hi Bernie,
> >
> > I hesistate to bring this up since we've covered
> this before on the listserv (before you joined us?) and
> because most people regard this as a side issue, but you
> pushed one of my buttons here, so I can't resist
> responding :)
> >
> > You write:
> > "the way I see it, is that sin was always there.
> Only, humans have evolved a conscience so then it became
> known to us. For example, a bear or lion can kill another
> of its kind simply for selfish reasons. It can also rape.
> That is not a sin for them (it is actually normal evolution-
> part of God's plan). But they are also not offered
> eternal life and a relationship with God. When humans
> evolved the conscience, we are able to view that as
> 'sin' whereas lower animals are 'blind' to
> that. With our conscience, we are no longer 'blind'
> to this and many other spiritual things (unless we get
> calloused to sin and then blind ourselves). We then have a
> choice to receive God or not- being "born again"
> and becoming "new creatures in Christ.""
> >
> > I respond:
> > I agree with you that actions normally called
> "sin" for us, are not "sinful" for
> animals, because they are not under the law, and so cannot
> be held accountable. Whether or not our moral ethical
> conscience "evolved" or not I'm not sure, but
> to be sure, we were specially made aware of our relationship
> with God and what He has defined as right and wrong.
> Likewise, I agree that only becoming "new creatures in
> Christ" do we find salvation and eternal life.
> >
> > HOWEVER....I see no reason why this excludes animals
> from eternal life. We have just affirmed they are sinless,
> and in fact, operate according to God's plan, which
> includes evolution. I also would affirm that animals have
> souls (or are souls, whatever terminology you
> prefer)--again, perhaps not in the same sense that we have
> them (which includes an awareness of and participation in a
> relationship with God), but nevertheless, they do share with
> us the "breath of life" and they do exhibit the
> (rudimentary) capacity for emotions and reason and sentience
> that I think are a direct reflection of the divine essence.
> Put the two together--absense of sinfullness/fulfillment of
> God's creative plan (translating to NOT needing
> salvation/redemption through Christ), and their having a
> spiritual nature, and I see no reason for their exclusion.
> Moreover, we are taught in Romans that "all
> creation" is waiting to share in the glory of God, that
> God saved animals and
> > people in the flood, that God cares for His creation
> through the provision of all their needs, and Scripture
> speaks of a "new earth" and uses imagery that
> includes animals, not just humanity---put all these things
> together, and I see a picture of a loving God and Creator
> not only redeeming and adopting us as children in His
> kingdom, but also a loving God and Creator who will give
> eternal life to all His other "good" creatures,
> His "pets" if you will, in His kingdom too.
> >
> > In Christ,
> > Christine (ASA member)
> >
> >
> > "For we walk by faith, not by sight" ~II
> Corinthians 5:7
> >
> > Help save the life of a homeless animal--visit
> www.azrescue.org to find out how.
> >
> > Recycling a single aluminum can conserves enough
> energy to power your TV for 3 hours--Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!
> Learn more at www.cleanup.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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