RE: [asa] Bloesch on the Fall (was "Adam and the Fall")

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Jack Syme
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 12:58 AM
To: Dick Fischer; ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Bloesch on the Fall (was "Adam and the Fall")

I am not trying to argue for RTB's solution. I agree with you that if Adam
was historical, he was neolithic.

The problem that I have with your scenario surrounds this point:

"Through Adam men would have been introduced to God or even the Trinity.
They would have been shown through Adam's good example that obedience had
benefits and disobedience had consequences." and "This scenario suggests
that one is not condemned or saved until one hears and rejects or accepts
the message"

How exactly is this to be accomplished? Certainly during Adam's time there
would be many peoples who never heard of Adam or of Adam's god. Even now
there may be isolated peoples who have never heard of God or Christ. Are we
to believe that there are modern humans (or were during Adam's time) who
have a lower status of humanity because they have never heard of the gospel?
Are they not sinners that need to be saved despite the fact that they have
never heard?

This gets to my question of can there be sin apart from the law.
According to Genesis 6:5 "The lord saw how great man's wickedness on the
earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart
was only evil all the time." This was not only before the Torah, but it was
also before some people had a chance to hear "the message" but God
considered them evil anyway.

----------------------------

Jack, here are a few of my thoughts on this.

[Rom 2:12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without
law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

[Rom 2:13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the
doers of the law shall be justified.

[Rom 2:14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the
things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto
themselves:

[Rom 2:15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing
or else excusing one another;)

With or without the suggestion of Adam's posterity taking some knowledge of
God to their Neolithic counterparts, this scripture indicates that the
Gentiles have a conscience of good and evil by having the law written on
their hearts. When this started, or how it works in general, I won't say,
but I presume it is the work of the Spirit of God upon them, even in the
absence of the specific message of the Biblical God, so they are left
without excuse. Yet since they don't have the "law" (of Moses or of
Christ), there appears to be a different sort of accountability from those
who sin with full knowledge of the law. My question has long been, why do
many Christians only want the "heathen" to be condemned or "accused" by the
work of their conscience (in the absence of such knowledge), but don't allow
that perhaps they could also be "excused" as the verse also indicates, when
they "do by nature the things contained in the law"?

Paul also wrote, "[Rom 7:7] Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I
had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

[Rom 7:8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all
manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

[Rom 7:9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment
came, sin revived, and I died.

[Rom 7:10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be
unto death.

[Rom 7:11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by
it slew me."

Adding in Dick's suggestion that Adam and his posterity could have been
vehicles of the knowledge of the true God, I find that to be a very
plausible suggestion, although not one that can be proven from the
traditional Biblical account. Adam was in the presence of God, and had an
intimate acquaintance with Him. From the time of Enos at least, "then began
men to call upon the name of the Lord" (Gen 4:26). Whatever this means, it
indicates a more direct acquaintance with the Lord who is being introduced
in these early pages of the Biblical account.

You asked, " Are we to believe that there are modern humans (or were during
Adam's time) who have a lower status of humanity because they have never
heard of the gospel?" Not a lower status of humanity, but a different
category of accountability. [Luke 12:48] "But he that knew not, and did
commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto
whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men
have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Absolutely, they are
sinners who need to be "saved", but I view salvation as much more than an
escape from hell, but the entry into fullness of life (both now and in
eternity) and the blessings that come through adherence to God's
commandments and His wisdom.

Jon Tandy

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Received on Sun Nov 16 08:33:26 2008