Re: [asa] CS Lewis and going-off the deep-end (spiritual evolution)

My specific concern is that it starts to sound like panentheism or other
such systems in which humanity is inevitably becoming more "godlike." There
are plenty of new-agey worldview systems out there in which humans, along
with the rest of the universe and "god," are evolving together towards a
common future. These systems tend not to have any notion of sin and
redemption, which of course are essential to Christianity.

You might be interested in the eastern Christian notion of "theosis" (
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis#.27.27Theosis.27.27_in_the_Christian_West)
which is controversial but perhaps more along the lines of Lewis' thought.

On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>wrote:

> Hi David- let me state it this way, and tell me what you think (lots of
> steps are skipped, like in biblical geneologies :-) :
>
>
>
> Evolutionary sequence:
>
>
>
> 1. Big bang (nothing but energy- no matter)
> 2. Elements form (matter forms)
> 3. Stars form
> 4. Planets form
> 5. Biological life forms
> 6. Humans form
> 7. The "spiritual man" forms
>
>
>
> That is taking Lewis' ch. 11 literally. Where's the error? Yes, God does
> something new in step 7 (directly intervening and creating a personal
> relationship with humans/God), but there's always something radically new
> anyway in each major stage- so why is that a problem? This seems like an
> interesting impact on evangelism- a message for scientific people to accept
> the next stage... become a "new creature" and enter into a relationship with
> God. I feel like I'm spear-heading something here… taking Lewis farther
> than he intended- has anyone else wrote or espoused this possibility of the
> gospel being in-line with evolution as "the next step?"
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 14, 2008 10:01 AM
> *To:* Dehler, Bernie
> *Cc:* asa@calvin.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] CS Lewis and going-off the deep-end
>
>
>
> I don't think Lewis is making those distinctions; he's trying to make an
> analogy with biological evolution.
>
>
>
> If all you mean is that conversion is an "evolutionary" process in the
> sense that it is gradual and happens over time, I think that is a fair
> statement, at least if we are understanding "coversion" to mean the entire
> ordro salutis.
>
>
>
> But the analogy still breaks down because Christian conversion is obviously
> teleological, while natural evolution is not (at least from a human
> perspective). Moreover, Christian conversion doesn't happen in accordance
> with natural laws -- it specifically requires divine intervention.
>
>
>
> So, it seems to me a limited analogy. The classical notion of a
> "pilgrimage" or the Pauline idea of running a race seem more apt.
>
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi David-
>
>
>
> Evolution is different in different realms. For example, there is the sex
> act in some biological evolution, but not all. For chemical evolution,
> there is no sex. Same with planetary evolution. DNA mutation plays a part
> in biological evolution, but no part in planetary or star evolution.
> Therefore, there's nothing wrong with the next step of evolution, getting
> born again, being by choice. Evolution also creates new things, for
> example, the ability to hear, see, talk, think, etc. The new thing in this
> case is the introduction of the spiritual man, and the way it is received.
>
>
>
> I'm still looking at to why this chapter can't be taken literally. Any
> other ideas? Does this seem foolish, or am I picking-up on something new?
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:14 PM
>
>
> *To:* Dehler, Bernie
> *Cc:* asa@calvin.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] CS Lewis and going-off the deep-end
>
>
>
>
> That conversion is analogous to biological evolution. Biological evolution
> happens "naturally." Conversion doesn't.
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> I guess a clarifying question of mine would be "What does Lewis say in Ch.
> 11 that is figurative and can't be literal?"
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:01 PM
> *To:* Dehler, Bernie
> *Cc:* asa@calvin.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] CS Lewis and going-off the deep-end
>
>
>
>
> It's an interesting analogy. But read it carefully -- nowhere is Lewis
> suggesting that we simply evolve into new creations. His focus is on
> transformation, of the sort that only comes through submission to Christ.
> He uses the metaphor of evolution to suggest that this process, as it
> occurs in Christians here on earth, isn't always obvious and often is
> gradual. But without that crucial aspect of transformation by Christ and in
> Christ, you're really starting to talk about a different gospel, I think.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> One thing I wanted to share and see what feedback I get.
>
>
>
> I kind of feel like I might be going-off the deep-end. The reason why is
> because of how I understand C.S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity" (online here:
> http://lib.ru/LEWISCL/mere_engl.txt )
>
>
>
> In his last chapter, 11, "The New Men," he offers evolution as a metaphor
> for gospel transformation. Here's why I think I might be going-off the
> deep-end: I'm starting to see what he wrote as literal instead of
> figurative. It seems so profound and touching, I'm wondering if what he
> says about evolution isn't really just an analogy, but literally true.
>
>
>
> By evolution, I mean "total evolution" not just biological evolution.
> Total evolution explains how everything evolves- from the big-bang, to
> elements, to stars, planets, etc. Maybe the work of Christ is the latest
> injection according to total evolution? He talks about "the next step" in
> evolution- the ability to be born-again.
>
>
>
> Anyway, I feel strange taking something that was offered as an analogy to
> be thinking of it quite literally.
>
>
>
> I'll likely be giving a presentation of this chapter 11 at one of the
> meetings I hold, so I would appreciate feedback on this chapter.
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Received on Fri Nov 14 13:53:45 2008