Re: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs))

Bernie,

You've been keen enough to advance 'proofs' of evolution to YECs. Why not show your willingness to hear what they have to say? It is possible, of course, that you have never even considered these 'skeletons' in the evolutionary cupboard. I believe that the miracle of Genesis 1:1+ requires people like yourself to provide urgent answers to such questions. Why not give them some serious thought, and respond?

Vernon
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Dehler, Bernie
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 4:56 PM
  Subject: RE: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs))

  Vernon- I'm not going to engage your questions 1 and 2 below because they are off-topic in regards to numerology in the Bible. Those are various theology questions, having nothing to do with numerology, but everything to do with interpretation of content.

  As for numerology, a good limerick also has patterns- does that mean it is divine? A limerick is a five-line poem written with one couplet and one triplet.

  Vernon:
  "However, since you press me concerning the 8 of Genesis 1:1+, had you followed the recommended link you would have found that the Lord's number is 888 (derived from both Septuagint and NT Greek)."

  As for God's number being 888, that sounds weird; I'll look into it. Please tell me the exact link; I saw nothing at: http://www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/P.htm . Is that the name of Jesus? Yahweh? If that's the number of Jesus, what about the number for Yahweh? Or how about God's real name, "I AM" as he told it to Moses when Moses first asked God His name? When it comes to numerology, "the devil is in the details."

  .Bernie

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  From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Vernon Jenkins
  Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:35 AM
  To: Dehler, Bernie
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Subject: Re: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs))

  Bernie,

  Please be assured that I am doing my best to answer your question when I state "I simply report what I find". In other words, I enter the fray with no preconceived notions of what to expect - whether it relates to a sequence of 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,or even 20 words. You appear unable to understand that the _number_ of words is of no immediate concern to me. However, since you press me concerning the 8 of Genesis 1:1+, had you followed the recommended link you would have found that the Lord's number is 888 (derived from both Septuagint and NT Greek).

  Iain has justly described the Bible's opening as follows:

  "...obviously as scientists, we are all enthralled by the mathematical elegance of the universe that God created. As Christians, we also believe the Bible is divinely inspired. So perhaps it is not surprising that the sentence that describes the very act of creation also shows elegant symmetries and mathematical patterns?"

  It's not the fact that all this is encompassed in just 7 words, but rather in the variety and intensity of their numero-geometrical content.

  Really, Bernie, if you are truly interested in these matters (rather than in attempting to shoot them down) you will need to study the material I have assembled far more carefully. Following that, you might be able to pose more taxing questions.

  But let me turn now to question you briefly as a Christian evolutionist, and ask how you resolve the following - yet retaining a clear conscience:

  (1) While one might interpret the _content_ of the Creation Narrative to meet the demands of Darwinism, the _order_ in which events are said to have occurred is surely sacrosanct. We learn that birds were created before land animals. But this not the evolutionist's view, is it?

  (2) We are informed "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work..." (Gen.2:1,2). How does this square with an evolving creation?

  Vernon

  www.otherbiblecode.com

  www.whatabeginning.com

  ----- Original Message -----

    From: Dehler, Bernie

    Cc: asa@calvin.edu

    Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 10:49 PM

    Subject: RE: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs))

    You aren't answering the question. What is the relevance of 8, versus 3,4,5,6,7,9,10,or even 20?

    ...Bernie

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    From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Vernon Jenkins
    Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 2:37 PM
    To: Dehler, Bernie
    Cc: asa@calvin.edu
    Subject: Re: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs))

    Bernie,

    Clearly I have mistaken you for someone who genuinely wishes to learn about these mysteries. Isn't it sufficient, for starters, that the first verse (of the total of 31,102) alone offers such a blaze of numerical and geometrical interest? As I say, I simply report as I find. Genesis 1:1 has 7 Hebrew words - a good number, as I'm sure you would agree. You really need to follow up the links provided to be in a position to offer _informed_ criticism.

    Vernon

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Dehler, Bernie

      Cc: asa@calvin.edu

      Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:20 PM

      Subject: RE: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs))

      Vernon- I don't think you answered my question. Why take the first 8 words? Is it because if you take the next word, number 9, the whole theory falls apart? What's so special about 8 words? What if it was 9, 10, or 11 words? What if it was just 5, 6, or 7? What's so special about 8?

      Is God so powerful and brilliant that He can do this with 8 words but not 9 or more?

      The Bible was written to teach about God. It is a theological book only. To get carried away by technicalities (wrong focus) reminds me of this joke:

      Coming out of church, Mrs. Smith asked her husband, "Did you see that piercing that the Johnson's daughter is parading around with?"
      "I didn't even see her," admitted Mr. Smith.
      "And that dress Mrs. Davis was wearing," continued Mrs. Smith, "Really, don't tell me you think that's the proper outfit for a mother of two."
      "I'm afraid I didn't notice that either," said Mr. Smith.
      "Oh, for heaven's sake," snapped Mrs. Smith. "A lot of good it does you to go to church."

      .Bernie

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      From: Vernon Jenkins [mailto:vernon.jenkins@virgin.net]
      Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:04 PM
      To: Dehler, Bernie
      Cc: asa@calvin.edu
      Subject: Re: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs))

      Bernie,

      You must appreciate that I simply report what I find. Clearly, I am not able to explain why the following things should be so: the _sum_ of Hebrew words 1 to 7 (i.e. Genesis 1:1) is 2701 (=37x73), 73rd triangular number; the sum of words 6 and 7 (...and the earth.) is 703 (=19x37), 37th triangular number - which, when inverted, may be plugged precisely into the former, thereby generating a trio of satellite triangles, each of value 666; the sum of Hebrew words 1 to 8 (what I have referred to as Genesis 1:1+) is 3003 (which may be factorised in a number of ways), 77th triangular number.

      So, you see, in terms of _summation_, we already have an impressive geometrical opening to the Scriptures. But, of course, this is not all that arises in this regard. For a more complete overview, you may care to examine the page "The Beginning of Wonders" which you'll find at www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/P.htm

      I look forward to your further questions.

      Vernon

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Dehler, Bernie

        Cc: asa@calvin.edu

        Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:27 AM

        Subject: RE: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs))

        Vernon- I just compared your text to blueletterbible.com, and have some additional questions. But first, a more obvious question. Why the first 8 words? Why are you analyzing the first sentence and a partial of the second sentence? The second sentence fragment doesn't say anything. I could see a focus on the first or first/second sentence, but why 1.1 sentences? You are essentially making a bid deal of this quote:

        "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth"

        .Bernie

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        From: Vernon Jenkins [mailto:vernon.jenkins@virgin.net]
        Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 4:35 PM
        To: Dehler, Bernie
        Cc: asa@calvin.edu
        Subject: Re: [asa] The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs)

        Bernie Dehler wrote "Please tell me EXACTLY which manuscript you are SPECIFICALLY referring to. I bet that in trying to answer that question, your folly will become immediately apparent."

        Bernie,

        You are clearly out of touch with a body of data that for some years now I've reported to the forum. The answer to your present question is contained in the page I originally drew to your attention, viz. www.whatabeginning.com/A4/ResDiff/P.htm

        However, if you prefer not to look, the 8 Hebrew words referred to may be found at the beginning of any Jewish Bible. They include the first verse (Genesis 1:1) and next following word. They may also be fairly read as numbers because around 200 BC the Jewish people began using a system of alphabetic numeration based on their complete alphabet of 22 letters (plus 5 final forms). Details of this scheme may be found by linking from the foregoing page.

        Vernon

        PS You may find my suggested reading material for Michael further help in catching up with events.

        V

        ----- Original Message -----

          From: Dehler, Bernie

          Cc: asa@calvin.edu

          Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:47 AM

          Subject: RE: [asa] The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs)

          Vernon said:
          "Each of the opening 8 Hebrew words of the Bible has the numerical form Gi ."

          Please tell me EXACTLY which manuscript you are SPECIFICALLY referring to. I bet that in trying to answer that question, your folly will become immediately apparent.

          .Bernie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

          From: Vernon Jenkins [mailto:vernon.jenkins@virgin.net]
          Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 9:39 PM
          To: John Burgeson (ASA member); Dehler, Bernie; gordon brown; Michael Roberts
          Cc: asa@calvin.edu
          Subject: Re: [asa] The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs)

          Gentlemen,

          It is clear to me that you all miss the point of my recent posting. In essence, here is the problem I pose:

          Each of the opening 8 Hebrew words of the Bible has the numerical form Gi = 105pi + 99qi + ri , where pi qi and ri are small integers and the parameters, 105 and 99, are significant elements of numerical geometry.

          To attempt to play down this mystery in the ways you have, I find most surprising; in my view, they do you little credit as members of a forum of serious Christians and scientists. Why not grasp this nettle (for it is hardly likely to wither!) and set your minds to compiling a reasonable alternative explanation? This would surely be far more appropriate than contemptuous dismissal and inane ridicule, would it not?

          Vernon

          PS Please observe that 'Foolscap paper' = 'Red herring' !

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Received on Wed Nov 12 16:16:54 2008