Re: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs))

I think I should point out the following, as Vernon is repeatedly
back-quoting things I wrote on the ASA list earlier.

I would like to make clear that when I made those statements I
considered myself to be a Young Earth Creationist, (or at least a
strong advocate of intelligent design). I was also interested in the
uses of numerology in classical music ( a purely human-contrived
phenomenon).

I have never subscribed to the view that Vernon's discoveries
necessitate a literal interpretation of the six-day creation
narrative; and I made it quite clear in a post earlier that I
considered this conclusion to be a complete non-sequitur. Indeed, as
I argued earlier, if any meaning could be attached, it would be just
as plausible to suggest that it focuses the attention on the first
verse - a statement none of us disagree with anyway - that the purpose
of the narrative is to tell us that God is the Creator.

As must be perfectly obvious by now, I have altered my opinion about
the origins debate, and neither subscribe to YEC-ism or to Intelligent
Design. It became clear that much of the so-called science was based
on dishonest ignoring of the evidence.

  I therefore no longer collaborate with Vernon on this topic, as he
is dead set on attaching a kind of bullying YEC-ism to the
discoveries, when in fact it does not follow.

I think that Bernie has a point about concentrating on the first 8
words, when they don't stand together as a coherent statement in
language. I always had my doubts about this, as the coordinated and
independent geometric results that I discovered applied only to the
first SEVEN words - and there were different independent attributes
tying them up, which convinced me (and still does) that the numerical
pattern was intentional. The single fact that tacking on an extra
word makes another triangular number doesn't make much extra, unless
independent observations can be found relating to it. Otherwise, I
think it would best be put down to coincidence. (I don't think, as
others here do, that the patterns contained in the first seven words
are a coincidence).

I also think that all this stuff about paper dimensions considerably
weakens Vernon's case - you can do just about anything with a blank
sheet of paper!

However, I would point out, that despite Vernon's statement that
Foolscap paper is a red herring, that if you look it up in Wikipedia,
it gives the dimensions as 216x343 mm, ie it is 6x6x6 by 7x7x7
millimetres. That's got to count for something, hasn't it? Designed
to be in inches (13.5 by 8.5), when millimetres are introduced, the
divine pattern of six cubed by seven cubed is revealed. And of course
if you work out the area in square millimetres it comes to 42 cubed,
and of course we all know the significance of 42 ....

So maybe Foolscap is a miracle after all? I think not - but let it be
a lesson to you, Vernon, not to go fooling with a blank sheet of
paper.

And please don't carry on back-quoting what I wrote in an earlier era.
 I find it quite embarrassing.

I can do great tricks with American Quarto (11.5 by 8.5) and get both
666 and 1260 with a little effort, but I shall leave that as an
exercise for the reader.

Iain

On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Vernon Jenkins
<vernon.jenkins@virgin.net> wrote:
> Bernie,
>
> Please be assured that I am doing my best to answer your question when I
> state "I simply report what I find". In other words, I enter the fray with
> no preconceived notions of what to expect - whether it relates to a sequence
> of 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,or even 20 words. You appear unable to understand
> that the _number_ of words is of no immediate concern to me. However, since
> you press me concerning the 8 of Genesis 1:1+, had you followed the
> recommended link you would have found that the Lord's number is 888 (derived
> from both Septuagint and NT Greek).
>
> Iain has justly described the Bible's opening as follows:
>
> "...obviously as scientists, we are all enthralled by the mathematical
> elegance of the universe that God created. As Christians, we also believe
> the Bible is divinely inspired. So perhaps it is not surprising that the
> sentence that describes the very act of creation also shows elegant
> symmetries and mathematical patterns?"
>
> It's not the fact that all this is encompassed in just 7 words, but rather
> in the variety and intensity of their numero-geometrical content.
>
> Really, Bernie, if you are truly interested in these matters (rather than in
> attempting to shoot them down) you will need to study the material I have
> assembled far more carefully. Following that, you might be able to pose
> more taxing questions.
>
> But let me turn now to question you briefly as a Christian evolutionist, and
> ask how you resolve the following - yet retaining a clear conscience:
>
> (1) While one might interpret the _content_ of the Creation Narrative to
> meet the demands of Darwinism, the _order_ in which events are said to have
> occurred is surely sacrosanct. We learn that birds were created before land
> animals. But this not the evolutionist's view, is it?
>
> (2) We are informed "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all
> the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work..."
> (Gen.2:1,2). How does this square with an evolving creation?
>
> Vernon
> www.otherbiblecode.com
> www.whatabeginning.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 10:49 PM
> Subject: RE: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice
> for conversing with YECs))
>
> You aren't answering the question. What is the relevance of 8, versus
> 3,4,5,6,7,9,10,or even 20?
>
>
>
> ...Bernie
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Vernon Jenkins
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 2:37 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice
> for conversing with YECs))
>
>
>
> Bernie,
>
>
>
> Clearly I have mistaken you for someone who genuinely wishes to learn about
> these mysteries. Isn't it sufficient, for starters, that the first verse
> (of the total of 31,102) alone offers such a blaze of numerical and
> geometrical interest? As I say, I simply report as I find. Genesis 1:1 has
> 7 Hebrew words - a good number, as I'm sure you would agree. You really need
> to follow up the links provided to be in a position to offer _informed_
> criticism.
>
>
>
> Vernon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Dehler, Bernie
>
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:20 PM
>
> Subject: RE: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice
> for conversing with YECs))
>
>
>
> Vernon- I don't think you answered my question. Why take the first 8
> words? Is it because if you take the next word, number 9, the whole theory
> falls apart? What's so special about 8 words? What if it was 9, 10, or 11
> words? What if it was just 5, 6, or 7? What's so special about 8?
>
>
>
> Is God so powerful and brilliant that He can do this with 8 words but not 9
> or more?
>
>
>
> The Bible was written to teach about God. It is a theological book only.
> To get carried away by technicalities (wrong focus) reminds me of this joke:
>
>
>
> Coming out of church, Mrs. Smith asked her husband, "Did you see that
> piercing that the Johnson's daughter is parading around with?"
> "I didn't even see her," admitted Mr. Smith.
> "And that dress Mrs. Davis was wearing," continued Mrs. Smith, "Really,
> don't tell me you think that's the proper outfit for a mother of two."
> "I'm afraid I didn't notice that either," said Mr. Smith.
> "Oh, for heaven's sake," snapped Mrs. Smith. "A lot of good it does you to
> go to church."
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Vernon Jenkins [mailto:vernon.jenkins@virgin.net]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:04 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice
> for conversing with YECs))
>
>
>
> Bernie,
>
>
>
> You must appreciate that I simply report what I find. Clearly, I am not
> able to explain why the following things should be so: the _sum_ of Hebrew
> words 1 to 7 (i.e. Genesis 1:1) is 2701 (=37x73), 73rd triangular
> number; the sum of words 6 and 7 (...and the earth.) is 703 (=19x37), 37th
> triangular number - which, when inverted, may be plugged precisely into the
> former, thereby generating a trio of satellite triangles, each of
> value 666; the sum of Hebrew words 1 to 8 (what I have referred to as
> Genesis 1:1+) is 3003 (which may be factorised in a number of ways), 77th
> triangular number.
>
>
>
> So, you see, in terms of _summation_, we already have an impressive
> geometrical opening to the Scriptures. But, of course, this is not all that
> arises in this regard. For a more complete overview, you may care to
> examine the page "The Beginning of Wonders" which you'll find at
> www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/P.htm
>
>
>
> I look forward to your further questions.
>
>
>
> Vernon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Dehler, Bernie
>
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:27 AM
>
> Subject: RE: [asa] Vernon's other bible code (was: The Challenge (was Advice
> for conversing with YECs))
>
>
>
> Vernon- I just compared your text to blueletterbible.com, and have some
> additional questions. But first, a more obvious question. Why the first 8
> words? Why are you analyzing the first sentence and a partial of the second
> sentence? The second sentence fragment doesn't say anything. I could see a
> focus on the first or first/second sentence, but why 1.1 sentences? You are
> essentially making a bid deal of this quote:
>
>
>
> "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth"
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Vernon Jenkins [mailto:vernon.jenkins@virgin.net]
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 4:35 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs)
>
>
>
> Bernie Dehler wrote "Please tell me EXACTLY which manuscript you are
> SPECIFICALLY referring to. I bet that in trying to answer that question,
> your folly will become immediately apparent."
>
>
>
> Bernie,
>
>
>
> You are clearly out of touch with a body of data that for some years now
> I've reported to the forum. The answer to your present question is
> contained in the page I originally drew to your attention, viz.
> www.whatabeginning.com/A4/ResDiff/P.htm
>
> However, if you prefer not to look, the 8 Hebrew words referred to may be
> found at the beginning of any Jewish Bible. They include the first verse
> (Genesis 1:1) and next following word. They may also be fairly read as
> numbers because around 200 BC the Jewish people began using a system of
> alphabetic numeration based on their complete alphabet of 22 letters (plus 5
> final forms). Details of this scheme may be found by linking from the
> foregoing page.
>
>
>
> Vernon
>
>
>
> PS You may find my suggested reading material for Michael further help in
> catching up with events.
>
>
>
> V
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Dehler, Bernie
>
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:47 AM
>
> Subject: RE: [asa] The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs)
>
>
>
> Vernon said:
> "Each of the opening 8 Hebrew words of the Bible has the numerical form
> Gi …"
>
>
>
> Please tell me EXACTLY which manuscript you are SPECIFICALLY referring to.
> I bet that in trying to answer that question, your folly will become
> immediately apparent.
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Vernon Jenkins [mailto:vernon.jenkins@virgin.net]
> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 9:39 PM
> To: John Burgeson (ASA member); Dehler, Bernie; gordon brown; Michael
> Roberts
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] The Challenge (was Advice for conversing with YECs)
>
>
>
> Gentlemen,
>
>
>
> It is clear to me that you all miss the point of my recent posting. In
> essence, here is the problem I pose:
>
>
>
> Each of the opening 8 Hebrew words of the Bible has the numerical form Gi =
> 105pi + 99qi + ri , where pi qi and ri are small integers and the
> parameters, 105 and 99, are significant elements of numerical geometry.
>
>
>
> To attempt to play down this mystery in the ways you have, I find most
> surprising; in my view, they do you little credit as members of a forum of
> serious Christians and scientists. Why not grasp this nettle (for it is
> hardly likely to wither!) and set your minds to compiling a reasonable
> alternative explanation? This would surely be far more appropriate than
> contemptuous dismissal and inane ridicule, would it not?
>
>
>
> Vernon
>
>
>
> PS Please observe that 'Foolscap paper' = 'Red herring' !
>
>

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