Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again

But Dawkins' statement makes no reference to the truth/falsity of hell, much
less God. His point hinges on little more than the imagined effects of one
particular, narrow tenet of a faith with an assumed and unjustified moral
position - hence Mike's and other's responses here.

We can agree to disagree here, sure - I don't think we're going to get
anywhere. But I think you're mistakenly attributing a perspective you
believe could be made or offered with what Dawkins himself said.

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>wrote:

> Schwarzwald said: "The bottom line simply doesn't work."
>
>
>
> Then I guess we will agree to disagree.
>
>
>
> I understand Dawkins completely. I disagree with his conclusion, but I can
> see what he means by the 'child abuse' statement. If it turns out that
> there is no God, and all us Christian are deluded, then I agree with Dawkins
> that children and others have been unnecessarily damaged.
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Schwarzwald
> *Sent:* Friday, November 07, 2008 3:48 PM
> *To:* asa@calvin.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>
>
>
> The bottom line simply doesn't work. As I've pointed out, there are plenty
> of undeniable (by most atheist and christians alike) facts about the world
> that would be cruel/abusive to tell a child, especially depending on
> context. Further, if the cruelty depends on the truth of the matter, then
> raising a child with atheist beliefs is cruel if there is a God - and no one
> can say whether or not it's actually cruel, because none of us are privy to
> that certain and demonstrable knowledge on the question. This before noting
> the problems with right/wrong or cruel/kind under an atheism-as-true
> perspective.
>
> And keep in mind that many people who leave one faith or another don't do
> so entirely because of the faith itself. I'm sure some people may fit the
> bill, but there are many, many people who are bitter about christianity
> because of their experience with other christians (hypocrites, etc), with
> political stances, or otherwise. Mike's done a good job of pointing out
> where Dawkins' claim must go for it to be true, and why it fails.
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:50 AM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> There are a lot of people who leave Christianity and feel abused by it.
> Many are quite bitter about it... damaged goods. You can read their
> "falling away" testimonies here:
>
> http://exchristian.net/
>
> Bottom line- if there's no God- it is cruel to say there's a God who will
> send you to hell if you don't accept his imaginary son. On the other hand,
> if there is a God and the gospel is true, a person loses out on an abundant
> life in Christ if he rejects it.
>
> If someone yells "FIRE" in a movie house during your favorite movie, would
> you be upset? It all depends- on whether the fire is true or not. If true,
> you'll thank them. If false, you'll hate them for wrecking the movie. Same
> exact thing... only different.
>
> ...Bernie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Iain Strachan
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 12:24 AM
> To: Nucacids
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>
> Mike,
>
> Thanks for presenting this evidence. It confirms what I've known
> through empirical observation for a long time; which is why Dawkins's
> comments on child-abuse were the most offensive in the entire book as
> far as I'm concerned.
>
> In my voluntary work ( a telephone support line for the suicidal) I
> get to talk with appalling regularity with people who have been
> sexually abused as children. The damage it does is permanent - I do
> indeed get to see the lack of self-esteem, the feelings of guilt
> (victims often think it's their fault), the depression, the traumatic
> flashbacks when the victim re-lives the abuse vividly, and the
> suicidal thoughts.
>
> But on the other hand, I can count on the fingers of no hands the
> number of times when I've spoken to a person who was traumatized by
> being taught about hell.
>
> Dawkins's approach is shameful in this part of his book - as you say,
> it ignores the evidence, and, it seems to me, is deliberately using a
> highly emotive subject (child abuse) to make his point. I was quite
> disgusted by Dawkins's claims, so it's good to see real evidence that
> counters it. Dawkins is without excuse for his sloppy scholarship
> here.
>
> Regards,
> Iain.
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com> wrote:
> > Hi Bernie,
> >
> >
> >
> > "If Dawkins was right, then he would have a very good point. If there
> was
> > no God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental torture on kids."
> >
> >
> >
> > This is incorrect. Real child abuse and mental torture bring about
> changes
> > in the brain and body that are detectable later on in life. For example,
> if
> > you meet or know someone who has a low self-esteem, who has poor social
> > skills, who battles depression, and who suffers from a variety of
> ailments
> > (migraines, skin problems, digestive problems, anxiety issues, etc.),
> > chances are good that this person was abused as a child. But don't take
> my
> > word for it, look to science:
> >
> >
> >
> > "Childhood maltreatment strongly predicts poor psychiatric and physical
> > health outcomes in adulthood. This overview of the literature shows that
> > individuals who suffer abuse, neglect, or serious family dysfunction as
> > children are more likely to be depressed, to experience other types of
> > psychiatric illness, to have more physical symptoms (both medically
> > explained and unexplained), and to engage in more health-risk behaviors
> than
> > their nonabused counterparts. (Arnow BA. 2004. Relationships between
> > childhood maltreatment, adult health and psychiatric outcomes, and
> medical
> > utilization. J Clin Psychiatry. 65 Suppl 12:10-5.)"
> >
> >
> >
> > There is no evidence that teaching children about hell results in these
> > adult outcomes. Dawkins, writing as the Professor for the Public
> > Understanding of Science, ignores the extensive scientific literature on
> > child abuse and its effects. What's more, there is also a large body of
> > scientific evidence that shows a religious upbringing is psychologically
> and
> > developmentally positive. An there are studies which show religious
> people
> > are less likely to engage in child abuse:
> >
> > "Religiosity and the socioemotional adjustment of adolescent mothers and
> > their children.Carothers SS, Borkowski JG, Lefever JB, Whitman TL.
> > J Fam Psychol. 2005 Jun;19(2):263-75.
> >
> > This study assessed the impact of religiosity on the socioemotional and
> > behavioral outcomes of 91 adolescent mothers and their offspring over 10
> > years. Religiosity was defined as involvement in church and contact with
> and
> > dependence on church officials and members. Mothers classified as high in
> > religious involvement had significantly higher self-esteem and lower
> > depression scores, exhibited less child abuse potential, and had higher
> > occupational and educational attainment than mothers classified as low in
> > religious involvement; differences remained when multiple factors, such
> as
> > stress and grandmother support, were held constant. Children with more
> > religious mothers had fewer internalizing and externalizing problems at
> 10
> > years of age, with maternal adjustment mediating this relationship.
> > Religiosity, through increased social support, served as a protective
> factor
> > for teenaged mothers and their children."
> >
> > Dawkins also ignores these data.
> >
> > Thus, there is a profound hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty in
> Dawkins
> > message. On one hand, he claims science has disproven the existence of
> God,
> > yet there are no scientific studies that attempt to determine whether or
> not
> > God exists. On the other hand, there are plenty of scientific studies
> that
> > undercut his "religious upbringing as child abuse" message, and the
> > scientist ignores these.
> >
> > What he instead offers in his book is rhetoric and anecdote. He tells
> the
> > story about a letter he received from some unknown woman who got over her
> > sexual abuse, but is still tormented by hell beliefs. Of course, there
> is
> > no effort to substantiate this account; Dawkins trusts it on blind faith.
> > But even if the story is true, I'd bet this woman has many monsters in
> her
> > past and her mind has decided to "blame hell" as a defensive mechanism.
> It's
> > often easier to lash out at an idea than relive the hellish experience
> that
> > can come from *people.*
> >
> > Bottom line: Even if hell does not exist, there is no evidence that such
> > belief generates the effects typically associated with child abuse.
> > Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that strong religiosity during
> > childhood has a positive effect on development.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dehler, Bernie
> > To: asa@calvin.edu
> > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:54 AM
> > Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
> >
> > If Dawkins was right, then he would have a very good point. If there was
> no
> > God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental torture on kids. However,
> if
> > Dawkins is wrong, then he'll burn in hell for it... likely... but that
> would be
> > God's call.
> >
> >
> >
> > ...Bernie
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -----------
> Non timeo sed caveo
>
> -----------
>
>
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Received on Fri Nov 7 19:24:06 2008