Re: [asa] Timaeus--ID isn't "god of the gaps"

Hi Gregory,

"Yes and no. Surely you are not suggesting that 'evolution' is synonymous with 'games of chance'?"

No, I did not suggest that.

"The Casino owner intentionally, purposefully, with a plan and goal (e.g. profit) uses games of chance that take time to play."

Yes, this is what "For example" referred to - an example where minds enlist and recruit all sorts of processes to carry out objectives.

"I'm afraid you are confusing 'it happened' (the Casino's operational history, in this case not natural, but human-social history) with 'it evolved.'"

No, you are confused. I said noting about Casinos evolving.

"Due to the inclusion of intention, purpose, plan and goal, whereas in the meaning of 'biological evolution' there is no intention, purpose, plan or goal,"

No, biological evolution is agnostic about intention, purpose, plan, or goal. Otherwise, we could ask about the methods and experiments that were done to establish there "is no intention, purpose, plan or goal." For example, what test result shows there is "no intention" behind evolution? I'd like to see the experimental design.

"what the Casino owner does is not and should not be called 'evolution.' "

You are arguing with yourself, as I did not claim what the Casino owner does is and should be called 'evolution.

"His is not an example of 'a mind using evolution to carry out an objective.'"

You are arguing with yourself, as I did not claim his is an example of 'a mind using evolution to carry out an objective.'

"He is just using games of chance, or lottery, raffle, drawing lots, etc. to achieve a goal."

Indeed.

"To be clear, as it seems the following was your main point, Mike, I'm surely not denying that games of chance exist and are used."

You seem to be under the faulty impression that I think a casino is an example of evolution.

"Further, Mike writes: "to offer a more relevant hypothetical, I have no trouble envisioning minds using evolution to carry out the objective of terraforming a planet."

Actually, I find this much less relevant as it is higly speculative and there is no evidence of this having happened."

That is it "highly speculative" and "there is no evidence" has no bearing on the relevance of the illustration. You originally claimed that it made no sense to speak of a mind using evolution to carry out an objective. I provide an example that shows it does indeed make sense.

As for being highly speculative, I addressed that - all investigation must begin with speculation and there is nothing wrong with speculation.

As for "no evidence," you have changed the topic. "It makes no sense" is criticism that is different from "there is no evidence." If you want to change the topic this way, you would need to start by defining "evidence," since you seem to be under the impression that evidence is something that is out there.

"Which 'minds' do you have in mind here Mike? Please be specific"

I already addressed this. Minds can either be divine or natural.

"Thought experiments belong in philosophy; in science you should do other experiments too."

How far we have come from "it makes no sense." First, I do not think ID is science. Second, I do not think my speculations amount to science. Third, you would have to show that everything outside of science is nonsense to have a point.

"Have you done any other experiments than a thought experiment (i.e. what you call a 'relevant hypothetical) to support your position?"

Same answer. Once again, I can quote Jacob:"To produce a valuable observation, one has first to have an idea of what to observe, a preconception of what is possible. Scientific advances often come from uncovering a hitherto unseen aspect of things as a result, not so much of using new instruments, but rather of looking at objects from a different angle. This look is necessarily guided by a certain idea of what this so-called reality might be. It always involves a certain conception about the unknown, that is, about what lies beyond that which one has logical or experimental reasons to believe."

"That you have no trouble envisioning (or imagining) such a scenario does not mean there is any truth to it."

Did I say otherwise? That I have no trouble envisioning was in response to your "it makes no sense" assertion.

"If you are speculating about human minds, however, and suggesting the possibility that at some time in the hypothetical future our technology *may* allow us to travel to another planet, i.e. to 'terraform' it, then I can see the point. You would be taking the perspective of a person that is known to exist, speaking futuristically about the dreams of some actual human scientists to transform the universe by leaving planet Earth."

Good, now expand your thinking. Do you think it is impossible for any mind other than human minds to exist in this Universe?

" But not if you would take the perspective and place the mental agency in unembodied, unspecified beings/creatures/aliens, something way-far hypothetical; there is no explanatory power in such a point of view."

That's a mater of premature opinion. You cannot determine if an idea has any explanatory power without first developing it and then testing it.

"As for the Casino owner, I can walk down the street and find an actual person fitting this description, an example of this. I can thus 'prove' a Casino owner uses his or her mind to carry out an objective using games of chance. But, as I've argued, there's nothing 'evolutionary' about the choices he or she makes; i.e. in making things."

Since I never claimed the Casino owner was making evolutionary choices, your point is irrelevant to me.

"In your view, 'evolution' is an instrument that can be used or it is just 'natural history' as history 'unfolds'."

Indeed. Is there some reason to think that it would be impossible for a mind to influence evolution? No.

"In my view, as a social-humanitarian scientist, it is an ideology that can be abused to try to account for things in which it makes no sense to apply the term 'evolution' or the verb 'to evolve.' In biology, evolution seems (at least to me, a non-biologist) to be fine, but not when it comes to minds (and we are almost always talking about human beings when we speak of minds)."

Evolution is not a subject in biology, where biologists, and only biologists, have a patent on the term and concept. Evolution is part of OUR history and we all have the epistemic right to opine about our history.

""Or carefully choosing the structure/architecture of life such that a nervous system was likely to evolve into existence."

Again, Mike, it does me no help to understand what you are suggesting here. Which 'mind/Mind' is 'carefully choosing'?"

Divine or natural. Either one can exhibit rationality and foresight.

"If you cannot respond to this, then there is no reason to accept that we are talking about the same thing."

Such is life.

- Mike

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Gregory Arago
  To: asa ; Jim Armstrong
  Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 3:49 AM
  Subject: Re: [asa] Timaeus--ID isn't "god of the gaps"

        "It makes no sense to speak of 'a mind using evolution to carry out an objective'." - G. Arago

        "I don't think we are on the same page, as an idea that makes no sense to you makes a lot of sense to me. Minds enlist and recruit all sorts of processes to carry out objectives. For example, the Casino owner uses games of chance to carry out the objective of making a profit. Or, to offer a more relevant hypothetical, I have no trouble envisioning minds using evolution to carry out the objective of terraforming a planet. Or carefully choosing the structure/architecture of life such that a nervous system was likely to evolve into existence." - Mike Gene

        Glad to have the discussion move into this realm. Let me address your concerns Mike, and I want to stress the importance of communication here, e.g. what people mean when they use a word, concept or idea. The biology is not as important for me as the communication.

        You say: "Minds enlist and recruit all sorts of processes to carry out objectives."

        We are agreed.

        Then you write: "the Casino owner uses games of chance to carry out the objective of making a profit."

        Yes and no. Surely you are not suggesting that 'evolution' is synonymous with 'games of chance'? The Casino owner intentionally, purposefully, with a plan and goal (e.g. profit) uses games of chance that take time to play. I'm afraid you are confusing 'it happened' (the Casino's operational history, in this case not natural, but human-social history) with 'it evolved.' Due to the inclusion of intention, purpose, plan and goal, whereas in the meaning of 'biological evolution' there is no intention, purpose, plan or goal, what the Casino owner does is not and should not be called 'evolution.' His is not an example of 'a mind using evolution to carry out an objective.' He is just using games of chance, or lottery, raffle, drawing lots, etc. to achieve a goal. To be clear, as it seems the following was your main point, Mike, I'm surely not denying that games of chance exist and are used.

        Further, Mike writes: "to offer a more relevant hypothetical, I have no trouble envisioning minds using evolution to carry out the objective of terraforming a planet."

        Actually, I find this much less relevant as it is higly speculative and there is no evidence of this having happened. Which 'minds' do you have in mind here Mike? Please be specific. Thought experiments belong in philosophy; in science you should do other experiments too. Have you done any other experiments than a thought experiment (i.e. what you call a 'relevant hypothetical) to support your position?

        That you have no trouble envisioning (or imagining) such a scenario does not mean there is any truth to it. If you are speculating about human minds, however, and suggesting the possibility that at some time in the hypothetical future our technology *may* allow us to travel to another planet, i.e. to 'terraform' it, then I can see the point. You would be taking the perspective of a person that is known to exist, speaking futuristically about the dreams of some actual human scientists to transform the universe by leaving planet Earth. But not if you would take the perspective and place the mental agency in unembodied, unspecified beings/creatures/aliens, something way-far hypothetical; there is no explanatory power in such a point of view.

        As for the Casino owner, I can walk down the street and find an actual person fitting this description, an example of this. I can thus 'prove' a Casino owner uses his or her mind to carry out an objective using games of chance. But, as I've argued, there's nothing 'evolutionary' about the choices he or she makes; i.e. in making things. In your view, 'evolution' is an instrument that can be used or it is just 'natural history' as history 'unfolds'. In my view, as a social-humanitarian scientist, it is an ideology that can be abused to try to account for things in which it makes no sense to apply the term 'evolution' or the verb 'to evolve.' In biology, evolution seems (at least to me, a non-biologist) to be fine, but not when it comes to minds (and we are almost always talking about human beings when we speak of minds).

        "Or carefully choosing the structure/architecture of life such that a nervous system was likely to evolve into existence."

        Again, Mike, it does me no help to understand what you are suggesting here. Which 'mind/Mind' is 'carefully choosing'? If you cannot respond to this, then there is no reason to accept that we are talking about the same thing. I believe RBH struck an important note about this to Telic Thoughts with his 'multiple designer theory' - and his was an anthropic perspective too!

        Thus, my conclusion:

        Human minds do use all sorts of processes, just not evolutionary ones. Human selection and natural selection are fundamentally different things (which ties into my response to Jim's comment).

        G. Arago
       

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Received on Thu Nov 6 20:45:36 2008